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Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:30 pm
by JohannES14
Snehks wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:54 pm
After going through all the ideas and speaking with the PBO Team, I have decided to implement a few suggestions in order to improve Crew Wars. Before I go into the details, I know whatever I implement cannot satisfy everyone here but we tried our best to make crew wars a better experience for everyone and to make sure newbies get a better chance to compete. So here is the list of changes I am going forwards with.

1. Soft Limit on crew wars entrance - We have decided to put a soft limit on how many players can enter a crew war for a given day based on crew wars (temporarily). This is done because the player count is pretty small and we have a lot of players in one crew which makes things unbalanced. I don’t want to delete crews which already exist or lower the numbers of player you can have in a crew because that takes away the hard work of so many people. We really don’t want people to get frustrated. This soft limit will be modified with time and probably be removed once crews get balanced.
2. Stalling - I will implement timer on Pokemon switch and you will be kicked from battle if timer runs out “even once”. I have heard enough about stalling and it has reached to a point now where it has destroyed crew wars.
3. Base capture - The members of the crew which has captured the base won’t be able to enter the crew war maps as long as the crew holds the base. So you need to hold the base with the members you currently got on the crew war maps, once you lose the base all your members can enter again (By all I mean the number which is imposed by soft limit).
4. Costumes - I will make sure everyone on the crew war map has the same set of clothing. That will be done to avoid alliance (if any).

I know it might be frustrating for some of you guys but then not everyone can be happy. If these set of ideas don’t work then we will see what else can we do.

Thanks,
Snehks
Nice! That is the best way we can make CW better now. We don't need to destroy crews, just put limit on daily CW entrance.

Thanks for being reasonable.

Once I have time I will post more detailed ideas to make CW more competitive.

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:38 am
by LifeFlows
DioKlau wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:59 pm
I can see that you dont understand clearly what happened to FF cause you was looking from outside, while i was part of it, but there is no need in going into that.
ShadowIX wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 pm
FrostFire "didn't work" because it wasn't meant to "work" the way you think. We had help from a second crew, to help us level our new crew up. So we had "borrowed" a couple of players just to help us reach level 10. On a second note, we had agreement already, that once we reach level 10, they would return to their crew. And they had returned by level 8 because they said we didn't really need their help. This was maybe 5 to 6 days long.
So the domination we had during those 6 days, doesn't really count as it wasn't reflecting our guild in a realistic manner.

This was done so :
A) Delques can recruit new players and help them progress.
B) Not Completely dominate the game, as we were doing for a small period of time. This was done so there will be a competitive scene in PBO.

Side note : When FrostFire was dominating, we were told crew wars will be paused.(This was because no one showed up on that day, basically 0 competition).
Reason why this happened, I dont know, but it wasn't paused because we had a legit reason for that day.

I don't see much difference from that day compared to the current crew wars.
Sure its not completely 580 to 0 tokens, but there is still little competition, and yes, it is due to the player numbers.


Before I start, I have to express some degree of gratitude to ShadowIX, the leader of FrostFire, for enlightening me with this "mechanism" on how his crew worked.

Also, I have to apologize for my previous ignorance on how FrostFire worked,
but ShadowIX's reply and subsequent enlightenment beg me to raise important questions
that, I feel, are very relevant in assuring fairness and success of future CWs
as an outsider to a crew FrostFire (I will use abbreviation of FF from now on).


To be honest, Shadow's explanation infuriates me as an outsider of FF that I cannot restrain myself effectively in maintaining objective tonality in this post.
I apologize again if this post makes other members of PBO uncomfortable because of my strong and aggressive tonality.



These questions are directed against any member of FF, including ShadowIX himself, who were privy to the details that ShadowIX just disclosed.

1. Can you explain how such practices of enlisting "help" and "borrowing members" from the other crew do not constitute as forming an illegal, secret alliance?
You also mentioned that you "forged" an agreement with the other crew to "borrow" members under a certain condition (reaching FF to level 10 crew status).

It may not be a permanent alliance among crews that everyone, including Snehks, frown upon,
but you "did" form a temporary alliance for FF's own benefits.

As far as outsiders of FF were concerned, we did not, and could not, know whether FF was a progeny of a inter-crew "agreement"
because you never publicly announced or declared those details to other crews;
we simply thought that FF was a legitimate crew that happened to recruit some old members of other crews.

Don't any members of FF dare claim that this alliance was forged all in "good intention" or in self-justification over abstract terms like "balance" or "justice."
Even in the real world, "good intention" cannot grant a complete immunity from taking responsibility of a bad consequence.
Such excuse of "good intention" behind an action can only be accepted from children in kindergarten.




2. How is this practice of enlisting "help" a fair practice to new crews with newbies, who cannot enjoy the same level of connection and benefits
that you and your crew members enjoyed during the initial development of FF?

This dominance you enjoyed, however short it was, cannot be employed or enjoyed in a same, proficient manner by newbie crews' members.
If this is an acceptable practice on your ethical ground, then you cannot possibly advocate for a new crew system
because only crews with connection and influence can thrive again even if PBO wipes the entire crew system down to employ a new system.

Perhaps, would I be wrong to make an educated guess that some of you clamor for dissolution of current crew system
because you KNOW you can exploit the same method and get away with such scheme to successfully build up new crews like that over 5-6 days?




3. "once we [FF] reach level 10, they would return to their crew. And [But] they had returned by level 8 because they said we didn't really need their help."

From this statement, you are clearly trying to place blame on the other crew members by showing
that they returned to their original crew against FF's wishes, without fulfilling the original agreement of reaching level 10.

You are trying to say that FF domination only lasted 5-6 days, as if it wasn't a big deal compared to this evil domination of Illusion.

So, was FrostFire really willing to let other crew members return to their original crew if they stayed longer than the 6 day period?
Were you willing to push actively the other crew members out of FF once FF reached level 10?
Or were you willing to sit and idle with benefits of CW domination brought by reinforcements from other crew members?

From your tone of blaming other crew, it is already clear to me that you consider it an unfortunate flop of events
that you didn't get to enjoy longer or more.

Moreover, the very fact that you mobilized other crew members for CWs demonstrates
that FF were actively seeking additional benefits in CWs from such "reinforcement" of the other crew.
If FF were only seeking limited help over reaching the status of level 10 crew from shorter experience farming,
FF should NOT have mobilized those "borrowed" soldiers for CWs on an ethical ground to prevent itself from enjoying illegal benefits at the cost of other crews.





4. "I don't see much difference from that day compared to the current crew wars.
Sure its not completely 580 to 0 tokens, but there is still little competition, and yes, it is due to the player numbers."

Since your ethical judgment seems to be rendered dysfunctional by your obsession with the number of tokens,
let me clarify the real difference between FF's domination and Illusion's.

FF achieved that domination through an "alliance" with the other crew,
while Illusion is doing so now with its own efforts and strength alone.

FF's domination lasted only short period of time
because "the other crew" in their own honorable judgment refused to let FF harvest undeserving tokens at the cost of others.

So, would it be fair for any other crews like Illusion to enlist the same "help" and to "borrow" members from other existing crews to assure domination?

Your experience with the "help" and "borrowing" methodology proves that such measure displays high potential to guarantee success in current and future CW scenes.

If you think FF is the only crew that is entitled to employ this technique, while the other crews are morally forbidden,
please try to explain your reasoning coherently on an ethical and logical ground that everyone outside of FF can accept.



This concludes my list of questions toward the FF.
Even if my conviction and logic tells me to do otherwise,
I will still make a conscious effort with the best of my diminishing patience
to conduct civilized discussions with what people in FF have to say in their defense, just for the record.








Finally, as a response to your side note, since you don't remember the reason why CW did not get suspended in spite of FF domination,
allow me to remind you as an outsider of FF who experienced onslaughts of FF at that time.

CW at that time did not get suspended because other crews, including Illusion, did not raise an objection to a state
where FF continued to dominate over other crews, at least for duration of your temporary alliance.

Snehks came online and saw the state of CW being overrun by FF.
He told people online on global chat that he would be willing to shut down CW if such domination of one crew continues.

It may surprise you as the leader of FF who hold strong hatred against certain members in Illusion,
but, at that moment, JohannES14 as the leader of Illusion, replied to Snehks on global chat that other crews, including Illusion, were temporarily short-handed
due to academic exams of its own members, etc.

So Snehks acknowledged FF domination as a temporary hiccup without the need to apply drastic solutions like shutting down CW.


In retrospect, I can can only wonder:
what would have happened at that time, if other crews like Illusion knew about your actions of enlisting "help" and "borrowing" members from the other crew?

An interesting question for anyone else in PBO to think about.

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:14 am
by ShadowIX
Getting help is not against the rules and its not an alliance either. We were in one crew, so there was nothing wrong with it. It is the same thing as Illusion and Sekzy, they joined your guild now, it doesn't make it illegal.
Hell, FrostFire joined 1337 long time ago, does that make it illegal aswell?

The only help we needed was to raise the level since we were used to the level 10 bonuses, but we had to leave 1337 for some other reasons.
As long as we are in one crew, the help that was provided isn't against the rules.
As soon as they left back to their old crew, it was the same old story, we were fighting each other as much as I was fighting any other crew.

Word Alliance means : two crews working together which leads to a maximum of 50 players working together.
What we did was a temporary merge, which is not against the rules, we had limit of 15 to 25 players in our crew, and we increased it together.
We didn't recruit them to dominate crew wars, so the only FF benefits we were looking for, were the crew level bonuses, which we already had at 1337, and I see no problem in earning them at a faster rate.

Also, these players aren't the first time to help other crews
Cheren joined Sekzy to help them level up
and some other players have left to join Altron guild (Union is the name I believe).

So I see nothing wrong with this, it is called working as a community and help people raise their crews, in a legal way. I didn't ask any help, I got offered, and I accepted it, I was willing to level the crew on my own if I have to.
WE did not do this for crew war benefits, otherwise, they would have remained and we keep dominating.

What I want is to pvp, if people stop showing up coz of "our dominance", then I am not enjoying my playing time anymore. So there were reasons why I didn't want them to stay aswell.

Also, stop assuming things, I am not blaming anyone for leaving, we had an agreement and they respected it, that is all.

Additionally , Illusion are not "doing so with its own efforts and strength alone", because you recruited members from Sekzy crew yourselves.
So your guild is doing the same thing, the thing is, we did it for the crew levels while you are doing it for crew war dominance. We did it for 5 days while your guild is doing it possibly to last forever.

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:29 am
by ShadowIX
Also if you are against alliances so much, maybe you should see what happens in your "family".

Isn't first time Sekzy capture 3x the tokens than FrostFire and RoyalPhoenix get together combined, with just 1 to 3 players doing cws!
One time is believable due to luck, but happening multiple times is just not realistic.
Also, back then FF had around 7 active players in cws daily basis while RP possibly had 3 to 5 people as always.
When suspicions were being raised, the two crews, Illusion and Sekzy merged back together, how convenient.

Care to explain this?

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:16 pm
by LightYg
First, do not tell lies from Sekzy
Second, we had some disagreements between members in Illusion and some members left and created Sekzy
It was not half the crew, it was 3-5 members
We spent a few months at Sekzy and after a while we reconciled with the members that we disagreed in Illusion
We returned to our "home", we did not form an alliance, we just went back to the crew we always did part of
We should not explain to someone who does not even play like you, but you're telling lies about us, so you deserve an answer with the truth ^^

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:48 pm
by ShadowIX
So what you are saying is, when you go solo to crew wars, its normal to get 120 tokens, by yourself, multiple times. (I know u went with luckstriike and Renan sometimes, but I'm not referring to those days in these statistics)
while a crew of 7 and a crew of 5 cannot even get over 60 tokens each. We even got 20 tokens each once.
Alright, anyway, as I said, its suspicions, not an actual alliance as that is impossible to prove, and now is too late to prove it coz your crews merged back.
Unlike to what you want to believe , I still play this game, but how much I play it is of no one else concern but mine.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with merging.
Eternal merged with Illusion.
FF joined 1337.
Erased joined RP.
Illusion split.
1337 split.
Rp joined FF.
Rp left FF.
Sekzy joined Ilusion.

These are some merges (and splits) worth to mention during the last year. So I do not see how our merge is seen as an alliance, and other merges don't.

On the last note, I will no longer reply to this thread as its just pointless attacks from every side, Snehks came up with a conclusion of how to fix crew wars and it is getting off-topic, for further discussion, feel free to pm.

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:59 am
by LifeFlows
ShadowIX wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:14 am
The only help we needed was to raise the level since we were used to the level 10 bonuses, but we had to leave 1337 for some other reasons.
As long as we are in one crew, the help that was provided isn't against the rules.
As soon as they left back to their old crew, it was the same old story, we were fighting each other as much as I was fighting any other crew.

Word Alliance means : two crews working together which leads to a maximum of 50 players working together.
What we did was a temporary merge, which is not against the rules, we had limit of 15 to 25 players in our crew, and we increased it together.
We didn't recruit them to dominate crew wars, so the only FF benefits we were looking for, were the crew level bonuses, which we already had at 1337, and I see no problem in earning them at a faster rate.

Also, these players aren't the first time to help other crews
Cheren joined Sekzy to help them level up
and some other players have left to join Altron guild (Union is the name I believe).

So I see nothing wrong with this, it is called working as a community and help people raise their crews, in a legal way. I didn't ask any help, I got offered, and I accepted it, I was willing to level the crew on my own if I have to.
WE did not do this for crew war benefits, otherwise, they would have remained and we keep dominating.

What I want is to pvp, if people stop showing up coz of "our dominance", then I am not enjoying my playing time anymore. So there were reasons why I didn't want them to stay aswell.

Also, stop assuming things, I am not blaming anyone for leaving, we had an agreement and they respected it, that is all.

Additionally , Illusion are not "doing so with its own efforts and strength alone", because you recruited members from Sekzy crew yourselves.
So your guild is doing the same thing, the thing is, we did it for the crew levels while you are doing it for crew war dominance. We did it for 5 days while your guild is doing it possibly to last forever.


You are dodging my questions by invoking distractful assessments over other crews or individual members
In addition, you are redefining the alliance between FF and the other
as a friendly, harmless friendship without ever reaching your weird "50 members" standard.

IF you enlisted the other crew members even with the smallest intention of making them permanent FF members,
I WOULD NOT CARE IN THE SLIGHTEST ABOUT YOUR CREW (or any other crews for that matter); DO BELIEVE ME WHEN I DECLARE THIS IN ALL CAPS.

Players joining different crews on their own free wills or volition is no problem at all.

The only problems is: you CONFESSED otherwise.
You let others from their crew join in your own crew with predetermined, certain objectives in mind = you let them join your crew with certain MISSIONS.
You didn't raise a conscious objection on domination of FF with that additional assistance from the other crew members
until they forced your hand by refusing to support your FF's undeserving domination anymore.




In contrast to your effort with misguided definition and arguments over a suspected alliance,
let me refocus on logical deductions from your own statements verbatim.
Here are facts delivered from your own statements, and let me break them down in logical operatives:

You said: FF only stayed dominant in CWs for 6 days max. - a result or benefit
You said: FF got unusually strong for 6 days max. because "borrowing" period of other members lasted only 6 days. - a reason on how that benefit was achieved
You said: FF forged an agreement with the other crew to "borrow" members until FF reaches status of level 10 crew. - an original scheme behind the reason - alliance
You said: FF desired to enjoy the old benefits of 1337's level 10 crew bonuses faster by taking this shortcut. - a motive behind the scheme
You said: the other crew members left after FF reaches level 8 status, instead of level 10 outlined in this secret agreement.
- an unexpected shortcoming that failed to prolong the result beyond 6 days


In the simplest terms, these operatives already satisfy means, motive, and opportunities behind this inter-crew alliance:
means - your capacity as the leader of your own crew, FF, to interact with other crews.
motive - you wanted FF to enjoy previous level 10 crew bonuses of 1337 through a shortcut.
opportunities - you felt no desire to stop that domination voluntarily even after Day 1 of domination, nor obligation to announce such scheme to people outside of FF
because your moral judgment failed to register it as a form of alliance.



Since you opted to dodge my request in answering 4 key questions,
and you refuse to answer any further in this matter,
I won't force the answers out of you by tearing down every single fallacy from your statements above.

Indeed, you have the right to remain silent over your own questionable action.


ShadowIX wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:48 pm
So what you are saying is, when you go solo to crew wars, its normal to get 120 tokens, by yourself, multiple times. (I know u went with luckstriike and Renan sometimes, but I'm not referring to those days in these statistics)
while a crew of 7 and a crew of 5 cannot even get over 60 tokens each. We even got 20 tokens each once.
Alright, anyway, as I said, its suspicions, not an actual alliance as that is impossible to prove, and now is too late to prove it coz your crews merged back.
Unlike to what you want to believe , I still play this game, but how much I play it is of no one else concern but mine.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with merging.
Eternal merged with Illusion.
FF joined 1337.
Erased joined RP.
Illusion split.
1337 split.
Rp joined FF.
Rp left FF.
Sekzy joined Ilusion.

These are some merges (and splits) worth to mention during the last year. So I do not see how our merge is seen as an alliance, and other merges don't.

On the last note, I will no longer reply to this thread as its just pointless attacks from every side, Snehks came up with a conclusion of how to fix crew wars and it is getting off-topic, for further discussion, feel free to pm.
So, violating the very concept of "fair competition without alliances in CW" seems to be a fair practice in your arbitrary, ethical ground.

However, I have to comment that your stance on an emotional ground like
"Hey, everyone else has done it, why pick only me? That's SO UNFAIR"
is an ineffective stance that would fail to bolster your position over others in any kinds of controversy.

Players joining different crews on their own free wills or volition is wildly different
from your crew's selective admissions on a condition from the inter-crew contract that you sponsored.




Finally, allow me to show the most fundamental difference between your conjectures and my deduction.
Apparently, I must labor and break these down just to remind you
that you are projecting groundless assumptions onto the other crews that you have no intricate knowledge of.

In the past, "Illusion and Sekzy conspired to form an alliance" - your accusation + members of Illusion and Sekzy deny your accusation
= an accusation with no tangible proof.

Recently, "Union has conspired to form an alliance" - your accusation + members of Union or the suspected parties have not confirmed your accusation
= an accusation with no tangible proof yet to consider.

In the past, "FrostFire forged a temporary alliance with the other crew for 6 days" - my analysis + the leader of FrostFire confirmed my deduction with his own words
= a valid suspicion based on solid proofs from the very same leader

Even though you are raising a ruckus over other crews with your own suspicion of alliances,
at the end, you have to acknowledge that you hold NO TANGIBLE PROOF to back up your claims.
On the other hand, I am raising a reasonable objection on validity in forming an alliance for FF, directly from your own confessions as proofs and evidence.






Regardless of any future verdicts from the PBO admins or community as a whole to determine
whether you, as the leader of FF, exercised a fair practice of accusing other crews for illegal alliances
while you enjoyed the very benefits of an alliance behind everyone else's back,

this post will hopefully serve as a great wake-up call for others in considering potential dangers or realistic loopholes to be exploited
in complete breakdown of current crews over a new crew system.

Thank you for reading all this!

Re: Crew Wars

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:28 am
by Snehks
This has got out of hands now. The intention of this post was to have a constructive discussion, not another arena for the community to fight.

I am locking down this thread.

Snehks