Why I quit: 3 big nails in the coffin.

Ideas on how we can improve the game? Please let us know.
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Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:36 am

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:40 am

Hello and welcome to my thesis. There's a TL;DR but please don't argue for/against it unless you've read through it.
I'm going to tell you my 3-4 day journey in PBO, backwards. Take it as the perspective of a prospective new player who was trying to decide if this game was worth the time investment.
The ruling is out on that and while I got frustrated and left, I'll probably check in a few months again to see what's up.

Since most people try something out and just leave, I thought having this perspective might be useful to staff. This isn't "in a fit of emotion" or something lame, I spent several days trying to deconstruct my thoughts into something generally fair, reasonable and hopefully readable.

The bad news is that a lot of the problems I picked up on can do massive damage in the long term.
The great news is that I believe all of these have pretty simple fixes and that no problems will come up if they're tackled early.
Onto the show!


I understand you guys are trying to make the game a challenge. That's great! The problem is, the PvE is not a challenge but a grind and precludes people who enjoy to challenge themselves.

Here are the first gym Pokemon. The ones worth obtaining and training in any manner are underlined. I'm precluding SR/URs since those are a large time investment.

Notice how few are underlined compared to the availability pool.

Your Starter (Litten at major early disadvantage).
Rattata - Alola

So...4-5 Pokemon.

At first, I loved how many random Pokemon from different generations I could get early on. I'm the bird trainer, so I could run a squad of Rowlet, Murkrow, Pidgey, Pidove straight off. I was training them up, having a blast, but the experience to me felt contradictory or "off." I couldn't put my finger on that initially, until it hit me a few days later.

The nearest highest levels for Gym 1 were level 6. I needed a host of level 20s and clever maneuvering, even with the offensive advantage of grass Dartix, to beat that first gym. It was tough.

Now could I just use Mankey and Cubone? Yes. Should I have to? Imo no, yet there I was being indirectly beaten over the head by the game for daring to do something different.

When I play a game, I'm either intensely min-maxing/theorycrafting or yoloing it. This is why the game was so contradictory feeling to me. It offered all of these interesting even if silly Pokemon, but forces you to take a specific path or else be punished with an unholy amount of meaingless grind. Several hours on a single map. Of level 6s. Before the first gym.

Without context, I had 0 way of knowing that. The game doesn't exactly tell you, either.

Hell, in some ways the game tries to lure you into taking all these weird bait-worthy Pokemon choices. See, I became initially interested in this game because the SP system lets odd Pokemon potentially be more useful/viable in a PvP meta. I thought the spawns would cleverly compliment that design choice - that it was intentional, considering how many weird Pokemon there were. I was looking forward to how PBO would let me follow up on those options. Well, we've already established how that turned out.

Look - there is no actual strategy in power levelling a Cubone and Mankey, and there is no other option but to do that if you care anything about the endgame. Not the best introduction to one of many Pokemon MMOs, particularly since this one initially seems so polished.

SKIPPING AHEAD, I beat the gym with a Dartrix, Pidove, Yungoos, Pidgey, Murkrow, and Woobat with levels ranging from 20 to 15. Stupid team? Yes, I'm stubborn. I started heading out toward the next town, beat the grunts that block the way. Hell yeah. During my grinding session, I had figured out what was coming up next so I could prepare and stop yoloing with birds, because that approach obviously wasn't going to work. I learned how the SP system works, etc. Really at this point I was just trying to get out of those handful of maps and move on so I could see the rest of the game.
I figured the interesting lategame SP system might be worth it if I can manage to just get to it. (More on that later).

Then in the same cave, with the same level 6s, I ran into a rival with level 20s and I had no type advantage. For people who power levelled cubone/mankey, there's a nice wingull at level 20 waiting to own them. I can't imagine what people who started Litten, Cubone & Mankey are doing to manage this. Seriously that rival has level 20s, and the nearest grinds are level 6. What if somebody wants to adapt? Who here actually looked forward to retraining a team at that stage without having to try and find some sort of silver lining/readjust their mentality? I can almost guarantee that "OH BOY, THIS IS THE BEST AND FAVORITE THING" is not the first thought people get when faced with that situation.

I beat two pokemon, died. I mind numbingly trained up another level. Faint 2-3 pokemon again, died. At that point I said bye to whoever was in the ingame chat, thanked them for their time and wished them the best, and that was it.

I really, really wanted to like this game. I came in excited about how the SP system potentially allowed some normally subpar Pokemon to have a place in this "be almost anything" meta.

But even if I started over with my nub team and retrained everything...tossed my silly self imposed "fun" challenge of making it with a bird team, went into min/max mode, bowed my head and only did what the game was obviously telling me to do, etc ...
It still wasn't worth it.

Why? That leads me to the rest.


At level 1 gym with birds vs rocks, I reconsidered swallowing my personal flair/enjoyment of the PvE system and looked ahead. What could I catch where? What would be an interesting team in that I could get on a budget? If I can't be silly and make it with pidove & co, I wanted to get a step ahead and start getting good commons I could use later in transition. I wanted to engage in PvP as early as possible with Pokemon that were "disposable" - common/rare stuff. That way, if I made a mistake with the new SP system, I could easily recoup my losses with some elbow grease as well as get a feel for how to improve myself. I open Darkdane's spawn guide (thank you Dane for writing that) and start trying to plan ahead.

But then I had this conversation:
"What are some good PvP commons/rares I could use? Let me open the list. There's Tangela, Manetric, Excadrill, I have a Krow. Haunter, maybe Timburr...Ooo growlithe's a good one. ELECTRIKE, MY LOVE! I wonder if I could invest in speed and treat it like a psuedo mega manetric in this meta. Digglet, Azumaril, Starly, Ambipomb, Joltik, CLEFABLE YES, Magneton, and a couple of nice waters like Karp. Not a bad pool at of commonish Pokemon at all, plenty to work with for 3 v 3 team cores."

"You can't really use those pokemon like Excadrill or Haunter."

"What? Why?"

"SP is already spent for certain wilds, that's why Gastly level 1 as SR is valid and Drilbur Lvl 1 is event map only."

This is what killed me, to be blunt. Team options shrank pretty incredibly fast. Stuff like Slowbro (SR I know, whatever)/Manetric/Excadrill went from "possible with some elbow grease and typical Pokemon MMO luck" to almost impossible. See, to get a team like that now, I would have to get Manetric, Slowbro (SR), and shiny hunt for an Excadrill so those SP points could possibly be refunded (I think that's how this works? Correct me if I'm wrong). On top of this, the shiny Exca could be useless due to a bad nature.
Staff had said they might consider nature changes in the future for shinies for this reason, but I realized later that this kind of destroys the purpose of the Level 1 = unspent SP system (more on that later).
The Manetric team turns into like...Manetric/Slowbro/Dugtrio or Manetric/Tangrowth/Bunnelby, which has glaring weaknesses/overlaps.

It's another problem of there being a lack of real options for newcomers without investing in a lot of grind/RNG. Worse, SP is unlike any other game I've played, so a mistake is inevitable. Why would I want to invest that much time into something that is easily, permanantly ruined with a small mistake?

So let's remember newbie me. Right when I was going through the newbie tunnel for my hopefully last time fresh after defeated Gym 1. Newbie me is debating on ditching the aspect I found fun with in PvE (AKA Pidove vs the world for lols/to see if I could) for the benefit of transitioning to mid/lategame. Then, I had that conversation and realized I would have to spend countless hours just to get something usable.

And then I hit the rival in that tunnel, died, tried again, and realized I would have to spend 3 more hours in that damn tunnel just to progress. And for what? There was no reason to even put in the effort. It's not rewarding. The reward for grind and ditching creative flair was just...more grinding. That is when I said bye. Not because the PvE was too hard and I'm too lazy, but because there was no reasonable next "step" for me to take up the ladder to engage with the game.

Quick derail to show how this isn't just a single person's experience and in fact affects entire populations of people:

This also hurts the PvE, because the "worthwhile" pokemon bolded for each route from Gym 1 to beyond that were almost always Level 1 so that people can hunt/train them in the lategame as well. This means I have to retrain something each time. To make matters worse, if you check the spawn list, the staff tended to only provide you 1-2 Pokemon of a "good" type for that gym IN the town of the gym.
So level 1 Tangela and Electrike for Bijli city, and the last city gave you...Cubone, Sandshrew, Mankey? Not useful for Gym 2; almost none of the spawns were. Every early gym = high possibility that you have to retrain something from level 1. It'd be a LITTLE better but still pretty useless if they slip in a tangela earlier, because then they're relying on people to read the forums/guides before jumping in when that should be completely unecessary anyway.

The Level 1 SP + low "PvP optimal/worthy" Pokemon in the spawnpool also goes beyond creating an iffy situation for new players. It also limits experimentation/innovation within PBO's PvP system. The system is so investment-heavy and is so willing to punish you for not having a perfect answer on your first try. Sometimes things that work in theory or in calculations don't work in practice, and anyone here that does anything with PvP literally anywhere else will know that reality firsthand. This is true of anything, anywhere, any time, in any meta.

Somebody will inevitably figure out something is broken/strong, because again - new meta/new stat system means new weird combinations show up. Instead of people being able to reasonably adapt to that new strong thing, every attempt to build/test a team is going to require huge investments of either time and/or money. That's going to mean people are just more likely to adopt the new broken strategy instead of innovating to counter it. Why? Because people who do try to adapt to that strategy are punished by going broke or are few because of how much time that adjustment will take to perfect/polish. It is literally just safer to wait until somebody finds something broken and then hop on the bandwagon than it is to innovate on your own. How could staff handle that outcome? Banning every new thing that's broken as an unofficial clause? That's hardly wanted let alone ideal. To avoid this issue requires a core game design adjustment and no amount of duct tape/band aids will improve it otherwise.

Worst of all, this system is completely unnecessary. "Level 1 = no spent SP" offers a small benefit to designers by allowing any theme-appropriate Pokemon appear on any map. Normally you have to have serebii/bulbapedia/whatever open in another tab, scroll by type and wrack your brain for what would fit on the map. Then, you would have to balance and compare that to other maps in the game economically to make sure you aren't making other maps outdated or useless, etc etc. Yes, it's a pain, but it's pretty solidly overcome with some work and good notes (hooray spreadsheets).

Even in a game where you're dealing with existing maps and thus limited spawn pools that have easy overlap (IE: Kanto should probably only have Gen 1/Gen 2 Pokemon in it) this benefit is STILL not worth the detriment.
Good new for PBO is that this is a game with entirely custom everything. There are what, 700 Pokemon as of Gen 7? Even if you put 10 on every map and take out most of the legendary Pokemon, you could have 60ish maps with completely unique, no repeat spawns. For comparison, Kanto has about 30 maps that have wild spawns, and several of those Pokemon overlap. Again, that's TWO regions of 30 maps with NO spawns repeated - no commons shared among any map. Crazy cool. You really, really do not need that assistance for this game. The downfalls are pretty heavy and the gain is not even needed. I have worked under worse constraints, I absolutely promise this is possible. Primarily if you do have some mild, harmless repeats (nobody is going to cough at Sandshrew being common in -gasp- 3 maps).


This game is not a challenge, it's a grindfest. There is no meaningful way to engage with this game on a budget. Hunting is insane, getting into PvP is insane. The lategame here looks really solid but there's no way to really get to it without spending weeks upon weeks of grinding and hunting, and it's...just not worth it, to be blunt. This is a time when there are what, 5 other MMOs, at least 3-4 other ones that are known or high profile? Why are you blocking what makes your MMO intriguing and different behind a grindfest that every other high profile MMO offers? There are so many others of these that have the high challenge hunting rarities that DO allow new players to join in PvP, so why even stay here? I don't say this to be an ass, but as a "consumer", these are exactly the types of questions people will ask themselves. ESPECIALLY since this is a word-of-mouth MMO that is primarily grabbing people from other communities who want to try something new.

This game is like the cute shy girl in class hiding behind her bangs and glasses, covering her head with a hoodie despite having such hidden beauty or whatever that weird sappy 90s movie trope is. C'mon.

I derailed myself.

The PvE is not a challenge. The PvE sets up traps like "look at all the diverse pokemon you can catch use" but in reality the only way to reasonably beat it without getting your brain going num is to train a cubone & mankey from level 1 on wild level 6s.
Annd in the next area you get to do that again, but with an electrike and a tangela from level 1 to level 20 something, on wild level 12s.

There's no strategy to that. Meanwhile, the game also outright says "NOPE HAHA NO NOT GONNA HAPPEN" to people who self impose challenges. Nuzlockes? Gimmick silly teams? There is 0 joy in replaying this game even assuming you go through the PvE the way the game tells you to. Creativity is punished because of the high level requirements.

Here's how I beat Gym 1 with a mostly bird team:
Send out Dartrix vs Graveler, hope Razor Leaf doesn't miss, faint Graveler. Switch to Pidove as a sacrifice to safely get Yungoos in - Pidove will faint immediately. Send in Yungoos, hit sand attack twice (it will die after that). Send in Pidgey, use sand attack until pidgey inevitably dies. Send in Woobat, spam confusion until Nosepass dies. Get a confusion off on Tyrunt, Woobat will faint. Send in Dartrix, finish off Tyrunt with Razor Leaf. If Dartrix fails, Murkrow will take out the sliver of HP remaining.

Compare this to "Catch cubone and mankey (or two), level, use Bone Club until Cubone dies, use Low Kick or Karate Kick until Mankey dies, finish off with Popplio/Rowlet or use a 3rd Mankey if you started with Litten."

Which is a more thoughtful process?

Hell, you can let the game be hard as long as people have a next step to adjust to. In almost every situation I encountered, I was forced into a box or "stuck" and the only way to get out was repetitive, non-engaging tasks. Your game's difficulty did more to stifle-
one moment.
(Gets out thesaurus to not repeat "engaging" for the 20th time)
Actually let me bold this and make it huge, too, because I think it's the most important point out of everything I've gone through so far.

Here is every single one of the game's problems overly simplified into one sentence:

The game's difficulty does more to stifle/hinder/slow down deliberately strategic choices than to actually create a thoughtful obstacle. The game challenges your patience, not battle tactics, and then doesn't reward that patience enough if at all.


Great news! This game is about 2 months old and has a custom region. You guys can basically do whatever you want, and my solutions are going to obviously be a variation of what is going on right now.

A) Remove wild, levelled/evolved Pokemon from having set SP. Let players do that instead.
If you want some things to be extrardinarily rare anyway, no problem. Replace those pokemon like Excadrill with something else if you want, just make sure to follow B. Level 1 SP system adds no real value to the game, creates issues both in PvP and PvE, and just convolutes things for no gain.

B) Add more viable Pokemon to the common pool. Horsea really, really doesn't have to be hard to get (Especially considering you expect players to faint Horseas/Seadras to obtain the evolutionary item for Kingdra, which is the assumption by the playerbase). DO NOT tie PvP viability with hunting. This is awful for people who primarily just want to PvP and forcing the ability to PvP mostly behind grindwalls alienates everyone from a good chunk of the gameplay for no gain.
This lets newbies and vets alike to experiment without being punished for it. Newbies being able to engage in PvP allows vets to have more diverse interactions with other people instead of being stuck socializing/playing with the same vets with the same teams over and over again.

I am not suggesting you turn this game into a battle simulator, just suggesting you throw people a bone. You CAN have high difficulty goals as long as there is a variety of difficulty for everyone/different challenge levels spread wisely throughout the game. Noibat being very difficult is fine. MOST things being very difficult is not fine; it is demotivating and creates issues later.


Level 1 SP should be dropped and/or more good PvP pokemon should be made common so that if people make a mistake in SPs, it's not the end of the world (and their wallet). I'm not asking you to make Eevee and Dratini common, but like...Mareep? Horsea? Why are they all SR? It's not necessary.

More spawn options for PvE/less grindfest for PvE.
Maybe add more NPCs, better NPC cooldown timers, or outright make gyms less high level compared to the areas/opportunities around it. At least don't force people to use the same 2 Pokemon each area.

This sums up why I'm not really sticking around. You're all great people, I enjoyed talking with you and dissecting the systems here was unfortunately more fun for me than the game itself. I'll probably check in again in a few months, but unless at least one of these things is adjusted, I don't see a reason to stick around.

I'll probably check in on this topic in case I need to clarify anything or go into more detail, but otherwise that's it for now. I'll be genuinely grateful for whoever read this whole thing. I hope it's at least helpful - maybe I'm wrong about one or two things, but I highly doubt I'm wrong about everything in here, even if my suggestions aren't the ultimate solution for some of the problems I dug up.

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Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:27 am

I can definitely tell that you're frustrated but a lot of this simply just isn't true.

Point 1
The table you provided where you claimed almost nothing was worthwhile is incorrect. Half of the ones you didn't underline are viable and I use 2 of the Pokémon in that list in my final party.

Additionally, almost half of the Pokémon on your list are really good for the the first gym either due to learning super effective moves, their status moves or their overall types.

You also mentioned that super rares were a large time investment so they weren't worth putting on the list. During my first 3 days of playing casually I had encountered roughly 10 super rares, a few of them being good or perfect natures. Of course the argument to this is 'well it's RNG so you could spend 10 years and not find 1' which is true but isn't really a logical way to think.

In regards to the general grind of the game that is because when you make an MMO you don't want it designed to be finished in a week or less like Pokémon games are, it simply just isn't a smart business model.

Points 2 and 3
The Level 1 SP system isn't really an issue. You are more than welcome to catch a Pokémon that isn't level 1, much like in real Pokémon games you wouldn't catch a wild Pokémon and expect it to be perfect. This game requires time to be spent in the game to obtain Pokémon with conpetitive stats. From personal experience it only took me 3 days to catch 6 perfect nature level 1 Pokémon that I wanted in my final party - I would argue that that is a more than acceptable amount of time spent considering what I got in return.

The 'small amount of PvP optimal/viable Pokémon in the common/uncommon/rare tiers' that you mention simply isn't true. Not only are there PLENTY of viable Pokémon in those tiers but it's clear you haven't done your research and checked the spawn guides on the forum.

You stated that the concept of 'SP is unlike any other game I've played'. To that I simply ask have you ever played an RPG? Most to all RPG games have some sort or skill point or skill tree system. Even real Pokémon games have a skill point system (IV's and EV's).

Tldr; please do your research before you spend an enormous amount of time writing something and embarrassing yourself.
Join the discussion: http://discord.gg/7UeNF6n


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Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:41 pm

Tldr; please do your research before you spend an enormous amount of time writing something and embarrassing yourself
You stated that the concept of 'SP is unlike any other game I've played'.
This meant Pokemon MMO. Sure I could have very specifically clarified, but I thought this was obvious. No need to act smug or superior just because somebody dares to attempt and constructively criticize a game you play. Especially when the other person is being calm about it, and so you resort to personally insulting the calm person.

So make this 4 nails in the coffin: community has a lot of rude people. I've seen about 3-4 people just bash somebody else about something that was either unwarranted or simply wrong. Anything involving adding to the game, IE: More exp, better chat system, whatever was nicely engaged. Anyone who dares to question the design of the current game has to step on eggshells or gets run out, exactly like what you've done by trying to act superior.

When I say "mostly viable" I don't mean for PvE aspects, but PvP. Considering I was (I guess am, haven't logged back in) new to this, I asked around and used what resources were available to me. I asked to be corrected if those were wrong - your response was just to call me stupid and unresearched.

Since you're so adamant that my underlined list was wrong, please go and re-underline the list of pokemon that are later viable for PvP or extremely useful later in PvE. I'd rather be wrong than right, here. I don't expect wurmple/etc to be useful later but again, different PvP system.

If you used Alola Meowth and leveled it up but relied on Cubone to beat most of the first gym, you still fall into the group that had to use Cubone or Bunnelby, which makes your argument actually support my point.
The alternate of not using Cubone but you had to grind them to level 25+ to beat the rival also supports my point.

That aside, it is blatantly obvious that you are mostly PvE focused. When I say PvP viable, I'm talking about competitive, tourney driven players. I do not mean "oh I'll join a tourney for fun", but people who base their entire existence in a game (their effort, etc) on getting the best PvP team they can. This is an entire, legitimate subset of people who enjoy that gameplay. Getting 10 SRs means jack if those SRs don't have near-optimal nature/ability/SP combinations. Super Rare Gengar, but it's Bold? No. Super Rare Ampharos but it has the Plus ability? Again, useless. Min/Maxing means if an evolved pokemon already has several stats allocated into bad sections, and you cannot later adjust those allocated stats, the pokemon is absolutely non-optimal. This forces competitive people who want to use Drilbur into finding a UR as a level one just so the stats match; this creates a nightmare for ability/nature hunting at that rarity range.

And before anyone says "well screw those people", realize that you're essentially turning away one of the most long-lived and loyal groups of these kinds of MMOs away. It's an entire chunk of the playerbase that other MMOs are able to survive off of despite being crap, because there's a well-supported and rewarding competitive scene. I'm sure you've visited some before. I am not really part of that subgroup (I'm just social, hence giant posts and stuff) but I am at least aware of them and how this game completely works against them.

The way the game is designed right now actively makes those people's lives more hellish than needed. Do you see how this is discouraging now? To get something useable above the "rare" tier in this game means sacrificing an arm, leg, grades in school, or job promotion just to get a team that's competetive. You can absolutely let people be into PvP without throwing the hunting/business-interested players off a bus. Just make more commons/rares PvP-viable, while keeping some other PvP-viable Pokemon at a high rarity. It's not hard, and there's no reason to scoff at this like you have.
The 'small amount of PvP optimal/viable Pokémon in the common/uncommon/rare tiers' that you mention simply isn't true. Not only are there PLENTY of viable Pokémon
I did this a little out of order, but my last paragraph basically tackles your statement head on.

The available rares/commons/etc create mostly faulty teambuilding cores. This is the main issue. My secondary issue of PvP meta becoming more stagnant due to a hard ability to adapt also holds up. That and the immediately available cores that ARE good require using non-optimal stat Pokemon, because lvl 1 SP system.
During my first 3 days of playing casually I had encountered roughly 10 super rares, a few of them being good or perfect natures. Of course the argument to this is 'well it's RNG so you could spend 10 years and not find 1' which is true but isn't really a logical way to think.
Why would you only let lucky people engage with the game? Why would that be your success case? What about people who ARE the "spend forever not find 1" players? The fact you're using personal luck to define everyone else (when numbers do not work this way) is pretty telling. Better yet, did you find those during the swarm DevR announced a while back?

Why does luck have to be so directly tied to PvP? Literally all of this stops being speculation and turns into a non-problem just by letting some PvP viable Pokemon be in the common/rare range. Even if you don't think this is necessary, I promise I am not the only person who has quit over this and implementing this does no damage. There's zero reason to be against this.
In regards to the general grind of the game that is because when you make an MMO you don't want it designed to be finished in a week or less like Pokémon games are, it simply just isn't a smart business model.
I'm thinking you really didn't register some of my post's points here. I go in depth to compare this with other MMOs that do have grind but still offer a good experience outside of that grind. PBO does not offer that. There is such a thing as meaningful grind, and this game piles on the meaningless kind. But here, the reward for grinding is just more grinding, which is the problem.

Really -most- of my points hold up, and you just going "nu-uh" rudely doesn't diminish that. If you want to say this is wrong, tell me specifically how, because this is a detailed breakdown and all you have done is sweep over it and deny most of it without presenting details to back up your statements. I'm frankly more frustrated with your lack of articulation than I was with the game, because you're mistaking anger with my own interest in dissecting how/why a game works. Back up your own points first, because just saying "no actually you're wrong" without going into detail and then having the gall to insult people at the same time is nonconstructive.

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Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:31 pm

wat I'm not bashing on anyone? o.O

With a small community like this it'll be hard to build a stronger community with misinformed threads like this hence why I was attempting to correct your mistakes.

As for people stepping on eggshells or getting 'run out' for saying anything negative about the current version(s) of the game or questioning things that clearly isn't true - quite a few of the discussions I've been a part of on the old and new forums as well as on discord and in-game. I'm always here for the underdogs, there's just a difference between questioning the game and misinforming current and potential future players.

My intentions are not to act superior neither did I call you 'stupid and unresearched'. It just isn't true so please do not lie about me.

My apologies for not remaking your list - I'll attach it at the bottom of this post so it might help you and future players.

I also apologise for not making it clear enough in the first post. For the first gym I did NOT have a Cubone or Bunnelby, nor did I have any Pokémon level 25+. I think I mentioned this in the first post but in case I didn't I also finished the first gym with 4 Pokémon and none of them had any SP allocated. So I don't see how my experience with the first gym supports your ideology? Please correct my if I've misunderstood you about the issue you had with the first gym.

You say it's blatantly obvious that I'm mostly PvE focused which again just isn't true. With the entire Pokémon franchise I've really only like competitive aspects. In Pokémon MMO's I have really only trained competitive Pokémon unless it was impossible at the time. With the real Pokémon games I play competitively almost everyday on Battle Spot and Showdown. In fact I recently flew interstate for a weekend strictly to participate in Premier Challenge tournaments for VGC 2018. I don't understand how you could sum up that it's 'obvious' that I'm mostly PvE focused when you don't know me at all haha.

In regards to your comments about the time it takes to get competitive Pokémon in this game being 'hellish' for some players, it reflects on how much attention you paid to my first response. When you compare the time it takes to get a team of 6 competitive Pokémon in this game it would roughly equate to the time it takes to get 6 competitive Pokémon in an actual game by the time you breed the right nature, gender and ability as well as IV breed, EV train Pokémon. The only way it wouldn't is if RNG isn't in your favour or if you want a team of 6 UR Pokémon.

With the SR Pokémon I've found in my first week of playing I encountered roughly 20 or so. Most of which I wasn't intentionally trying to look for. I have also never participated in a swarm nor have I even heard of this game doing such a thing. In regards to using personal luck to illustrate my point I mentioned it to give you a different perspective on the matter, a sort of 2 sides of a coin. Some people are lucky, some people aren't. But when you find as many as I did (unless I'm RNGesus) the spawn rates aren't set to impossible ratios.

You ask why does luck need to be directly tied to PvP? Do you realise what game you're playing lmfao. Pokémon is one of the most non-competitive competitive games I know of. Literally everything comes down to luck. When breeding your Pokémon there's a 1/25 chance you`ll get the right nature unless you`re `lucky` enough to have the nature you want in another Pokémon that can cross-breed. Then there`s it comes down to chance when you`re trying to breed an ability you don`t already have. Breeding completely aside though the actual battles themselves are completely based on RNG. Will I miss my move? Will I crit? Will I freeze/sleep/burn etc? Can my double protect work? Will I get a high or low roll on this attack?

As for the game rewarding your grinding with more grinding, that just falls down to what category this game falls under. There is a massive market for `grinding` games - you`d be suprised just how big it is. This really just comes down to a simple question. Do you play a game for the intrinsic or extrinsic reward? If you play games purely for the extrinsic reward the grinding genre most likely wouldn`t be for you.

Hopefully you've found this response slightly more constructive and it answers more of your questions regarding the way the game is designed overall. If not feel free to respond and let me know what I can explain next to help you. Also I've listed the Pokémon below for the list you wanted me to remake for you :)

PS. I made this list without taking abilities into account (since they weren't implemented when you first made this thread, I'm sure if I were to look up abilities that more of these Pokémon would be underlined for different reasons).
Your Starter - Popplio and Rowlet can easily win you the first gym. That aside due to the fact that they're all neutral natures they aren't good competitively.



Sewaddle - Amazing in PvE and PvP due to the move sticky web. It makes most of the gyms easier as well as with the right team it can win you games. Sewaddle can also melt through most wild Pokémon when you're training him up if you go to the right spots.

Scatterbug - Great for gyms due to it's ability to learn a variety of status moves.

Hoothoot - PvE alternative if you don't want bug types for status moves (he learns hypnosis).

Murkrow - Honchkrow with the way the SP system works is a great bulky physical attacker. That aside honchkrow was already viable during previous VGC seasons (in case you only care about VGC and not the SP system). Being able to learn night shade is already great for catching Pokémon if you don't have someone with false swipe. He also learns sucker punch which means that essentially you could run a 0 speed, max atk SP invested honchkrow and just sucker punch everything to death.


Caterpie - Great for gyms due to it's ability to learn a variety of status moves.

Deerling - Good for the first gym due to it's typing and ability to learn a fighting move at an early level (told you not just cubone and bunnelby were good). When you mix a deerling with a status move Pokémon in gym 1 it's pretty much game over.

Wurmple - Great for gyms due to it's ability to learn a variety of status moves.





Rattata - Alola


Bidoof - Very good for the first gym, he evolves into a water type at level 15 and uses water moves. Again, another Pokémon that isn't cubone or bunnelby.

Cutiefly - Great for gyms due to it's ability to learn a variety of status moves.


Zubat - Crobat is competitively a good Pokémon.


Bunnelby - This was one of the Pokémon you mentioned so I shouldn't need to be redundant.

Mankey - This was one of the Pokémon you mentioned so I shouldn't need to be redundant. However I will say that overall this Pokémon is AMAZING for most of the gyms currently implemented in the game.

Cubone - This was one of the Pokémon you mentioned so I shouldn't need to be redundant.

Sandshrew - This is more of a half underline until more Pokémon are implemented. He is one of few Pokémon to have rapid spin and earthquake in his learnset by leveling up.

15/26 underlined opposed to your 5/26. That's triple. Hopefully you can understand why I claimed that you were misinformed on this matter.

Some of the Pokémon I didn't underline also learn priority moves so they make good junkmons for the first gym (if you're aware of what that is).

Also in regards to the Pokémon I mentioned being good for gyms due to their potential movesets, they are also good in PvP due to the fact that there are only single battles currently in addition to how the SP system favours them.
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:08 am

Just for your information the early game was changed a lot recently. You might want to give a check on it now.
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