Crew Wars

Ideas on how we can improve the game? Please let us know.
DodoPS
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:35 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:49 pm

To avoid what happened to Altron, I think we just need the crew wars clothes (a camo soldier style would be awesome).
We didn't just invited ppl from sekzy, we had a silly fight and that divided us (I stopped playing after some days cuz I didn't like that situation), but once the parts did peace the crew reunited, that's all, not like a whole planned move to do what we already did (rule cw).

DioKlau
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Thanks guys for all the feedback, i really appreciate that.
I got everyone's point and i'll try to tell you how i think about the topics above.

John> I like the idea of decreasing timer along the turns, i suggested something like it on General Suggestions, but you gone even further and suggested a punishment to ppl which timer gets to 0. I really like it and i hope we can discuss the pron and cons about it with snehks and active players.

Light> I understand how it looks like, but we can base ourselfs on only how it looks. You said that you were 7 that day while other 23 players were online as well. From those 23 players i can easily say that 10-15 was new-mid players that doesnt go to Cw. Lasting 8-13 that could go. Trust me, last few weeks they gone to cw, but right now ppl get desmotivated with the currently system. 3 from the 5 members that goes to Cw on RP gave up and started to invest the time to level their teams. It directly reflects how desmotivating and not fun is Crew War right now among every crew other than illusion. Even if like for those 13 players that could go, 7 decided to try, it would still be 7x2x3x1x1. Some of them wouldnt even get near to the base the whole Cw. You understand what i mean? It doesnt worth to go. It's too hard and stressful.

Dodo> thank for your feedback, what i said to light applys to yours as well.

Johann> Trust me, i really understand how hard will be to dismantle a crew that you put so much effort into. It took me a lot to accept that the best for me (keep all royal phoenix members with all fun and talks with everyone on cw chat) cant match with the best for Pbo at the moment. I tried for days to think in a situation that both can exist, but i couldnt think on anything. About your suggestion of keeping the players but only a few can go to cw at one, i thought on it before. The problem is that the point in dismantling crews is to increase the competitivity on CW, making the excess of players to create their own crews/ join others. We dont have players enough to allow crews to keep a lot of members to them.
It is a tough and heart-breaking decision, i know. But it is necessary... I hope you can understand.

LifeFlows> I confess that was a bit hard to read your suggestion since english isnt my first language, but i tried my best, so please correct me if i get something wrong (you have a really good vocabulary, gz). About what you said with the numbers of players, you are right, this is only a immediate sollution, it is what fits the best to Pbo currently situation. If the player base grows that will result in more crews, along with more crew modes in the future, i honestly think that the currently decision will fit on that case. But i might be wrong and the limit of 10 players will need to be changed, and i'm glad that in your suggestion you also presented a sollution for it. In a future that the player base grows we can adopt methods like having more members in a crew and only a predeterminated number can get inside the war at once, developing systems that will work great with that, like your suggestions (Joker days and the other one - which i'm not sure if i understood clearly, but i guess i did).
At this point i assume that you read what i said to johann and why his suggestion (alongside with your improvement of it) wont be good for Pbo at the moment.
You also said that giving every crew equalitary opportunities wont be fair for crews that work hard to be the best. That is true, indeed. I presume that if the crew system i presented get implated in the game, a few crews will have all the 10 players, and even the ones who does that will have players that arent active on Cw. So a crew like Illusion that works hard to be the best and will definitly have a lot of competition from ppl that want to get in will of course have always 10 great players to go to Cw and get more tokens than everyone else. The difference is that instead of 400 to illusion and 200 to split among other crews, i suppose that will be something like: 250 to illusion and 350 to split among other crews. That is only a supposition, but the new illusion will be stronger than most crews even with the new system if you keep the great job, the problem you will have to face is to choose between your currently members. I understand how hard it will be, but as i said to johan it will be necessary.
Alongside with the fact that illusion will still be the stronger crew, monthly rewards might be given to the bests crews on the previous month. I'm sure you can think on what can be done to give to the bests crews the acknowledgement they deserve for keep the great job.
The role suggestion looks great, i'm not sure if it will fit on pbo architeture limitations, but if it does and most players accept it i would be glad to talk about this idea, and i'm sure we can improve it to its best.


Badt> Thanks for your feedback, i appreciate that you understand that cw needs a change and i like your quote:
"You right but , its the only way to keep a crew alive. we recruited many newbies ingame, taught them how to beat gyms fast , helped them with quests and with their pokebuilds. Some stay some leave . But that helps the community to grow."
You recruited a lot of newplayers and that is great, but will tell how it is different from other crews doing the same.
When you started to recruit new players (the time where everyone was accusing illusion for stalling, and it was probably because the new players were learning the game at the moment, not because you said them to stall) illusion was already big, so those new players was rewarded with tokens since the beggining, what motivated them to keep playing (not all of them of course). Again i cant say for other crews and i would appreciate if members of them can confirm what i'm about to tell, right i will tell what happens on Royal Phoenix: Rp main purpose always was to help new players, Delques really like to keep recruiting and helping them (that is why we didnt stay on FrostFire on that week that they become huge), but different from what happens on Illusion, new players on Rp does not get any reward on CW until they get really strong to be able to trully help there. And that makes most of them either quit the game or ask to go to Illusion, and no one can blame them for that.
That is the biggest issue with Illusion right now, It had its power with new player recruitment, and 'stoles' the power from other crews. Becoming the snowball i said before.
I appologize for using the word 'stole', i cant find the word in english that i wanted to, but i mean that illusion powers acts like a magnet that pulls players that seeks for a power like that.
I'm not saying that illusion gets players from other crews because they want to, probably the iniciative comes from other crews players wanting to get in Illusion.


I guess that everyone mentioned above is from Illusion, i understand your concern about it since with the new mode Illusion is going to be the most affected crew, i will always be open to think on more alternatives, but i only ask you to do the same, open your mind about the currently crew war system, and try to trully understand other people opinions.

"Heyyyy, congrats on being successful in current CW scenes. By the way, that's why we gonna sledge-hammer you next week since it's not fair to everyone!"

Unfortunately it is true, the problem of pbo was that when a crew started to get over powered, nothing was done about it, so that crew kept growing until its power break the entire game.
It is really sad what is about to be done, but it can keep the way it is anymore.



Again i want to thanks for the feedback and i'm sorry for possibly grammar errors, since i havent time to review it.

LifeFlows
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 1:37 am

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:45 pm

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:17 pm
LifeFlows>
At this point i assume that you read what i said to johann and why his suggestion (alongside with your improvement of it) wont be good for Pbo at the moment.

Johann> ...The problem is that the point in dismantling crews is to increase the competitivity on CW, making the excess of players to create their own crews/ join others. We dont have players enough to allow crews to keep a lot of members to them.
I apologize that my writing is long and tiresome to digest, but I only do so to consider various aspects in any given, very complicated problem.

But, please bear with me again.
Above all else, "not enough players" isn't a solid reasoning that justifies a complete breakdown of a system in PBO.

Let me display how such logic fails at addressing complex issues that require careful analyses and solutions.
I remember that Snehks disclosed a record of exact statistics on how many players pass each gym.
I can't remember on top of my head, but it was like 80% of all player accounts don't even pass gym 1 - 80% of all accounts created in PBO simply quits before gym 1.
So, that translates to 16,000 accounts out of roughly 20,000 all PBO accounts since the birth of PBO.

From this sheer statistics at how many people give up playing PBO, I might as well clamor for a motion to close down gym 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and E4
just because "not enough players" enjoy those contents beyond gym 3.
It's so "unbalanced" that only so few people get to enjoy access to rare pokemons and training grounds then.
Why not open up all training grounds and spawns beyond gym 3 to all players with badge 2?

Please, I beg you to point out how my motion to close down all gyms beyond gym 3 is any different
from your arguments to close down a crew system beyond 15 members
- all employ the very same logic of "not enough players" that majority cannot enjoy full benefits.


Your argument works under an assumption that only few people of a certain group enjoy CW,
while the bigger population outside of that crew suffer from monopoly - so they quit.

My argument also works under a same pretense that only few people of a certain group(badge) enjoy maps and spawns beyond gym 3,
while the rest suffer from oligopoly of old players - so they quit.


Do I make myself clear on how logic of "not enough players" is actually a weak ground to build upon decent arguments or to address any complex situations?
CW is one of the most intricate and delicate topic that needs careful analyses and delicate solutions.
All I'm saying is that the simplest solution on sight might not be the best solution for a very complex problem.

Of course, you are free to believe in your opinions, and I respect that,
but if you think your logic is solid, please do enlighten me on why closing down gyms is any different from your arguments in consideration of current PBO state.


Moreover, I don't understand why you are all fixating on the number 10 in Johann's suggestion.
To me, it was an inspiration. An idea that fueled my suggestion above.
To me, it could be 5 for all I care. Hell, it could be even 3 or 1 member to enter CW map if people keep complaining about it.

It is also a fact that Johann's or my version of adjustments to number of CW map entries is a worthy measure to be employed
before the PBO moves onto permanent crew break-down.

If Johann's or my version of adjustments to number of CW combatant would be enough to revive CW, great, let's just move onto other topics.
If they did not work, then we can consider on the motion to break down current crew system.


DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:17 pm
You also said that giving every crew equalitary opportunities wont be fair for crews that work hard to be the best. That is true, indeed. I presume that if the crew system i presented get implated in the game, a few crews will have all the 10 players, and even the ones who does that will have players that arent active on Cw. So a crew like Illusion that works hard to be the best and will definitly have a lot of competition from ppl that want to get in will of course have always 10 great players to go to Cw and get more tokens than everyone else. The difference is that instead of 400 to illusion and 200 to split among other crews, i suppose that will be something like: 250 to illusion and 350 to split among other crews. That is only a supposition, but the new illusion will be stronger than most crews even with the new system if you keep the great job, the problem you will have to face is to choose between your currently members. I understand how hard it will be, but as i said to johan it will be necessary.
Alongside with the fact that illusion will still be the stronger crew, monthly rewards might be given to the bests crews on the previous month. I'm sure you can think on what can be done to give to the bests crews the acknowledgement they deserve for keep the great job.
So, from your arguments, you acknowledge a possibility that there might be the second generation of "Illusion" appearing under your version of 15 member scenario.
Also, you said yourself from the quote above that your optimal estimation on 250:350 token distribution is "only a supposition (hypothetical assumption)."
So, let's consider another different, yet very realistic possibility:
let's say 400-200 distribution that you pointed out as a serious problem in current CW would continue onward even with 15 member limit.
As a result, let's say Illusion once again farms 580 tokens under new CW system because everyone else got sick of dealing with Illusion.

Or, it doesn't have to be Illusion again. It might be an imaginary crew that consolidated all the power players under one banner across multiple crews.

What is the next solution, then? At this juncture, we would already have observed that reducing crew size didn't do anything, so you can't push for another reduction.
More precisely, crew of 15 members do not have enough room to push for yet another reduction.
If this same phenomenon that you argued against continues, what then?

Because reducing the crew size does not prevent a dominant crew from taking over the CW scenes.
Inner machination of CW is based on competition.
"Competition" by its natural definition would make people seek ways to gain edge over opponents and to "win more" against others.

Your arguments are basically saying that a laptop would work and function way more differently from a desktop.
But, in reality, you and I know too well that a laptop is a just miniature copy of a desktop
with similar OS, similar hardware components and layouts like CPU, RAM, GPU, screen monitor, keyboard, mouse (or pad), SSD, or HDD, etc.

In the end, laptop and desktop are called PC because they operate under very similar software and hardware.

Without revising essential mechanisms or components under the surface,
like how Apple MAC differs itself from Microsoft Window PC with different OS, different coding and programs,
how can you claim that turning a desktop into a laptop would miraculous solve all the software problems that existed within the desktop??







Before I wrap up, now that I know specific number to work with, let me give you all much clearer elaboration of my idea.
Guide to current crew system: http://pokemonblazeonline.com/forums/vi ... f=19&t=185

Since I only joined the game relatively recently,
I wasn't aware of the exact number in crew level system,
so I wrote my post above under a rough assumption that a crew starts out with level 1 = 15 members / level 5 = 20 / level 10 = 25 distribution.

From the link above, now that I know how many members can join at which crew level,
I will provide specific number as example of my idea.



Before I start, here are data on how many members can join in a crew at certain levels:
At level 1, a crew can already have 20 members.
By level 6, a crew can reach the max 25 capacity already.
Level 10 does not add any more extra number to crew membership.



So, it seems that I need to spell out rather drastic revisions on my idea layouts - do hear me out, then.

first example:
Level 1 crew - 100% members entry on a CW map - 20 members
Level 6 crew - 60% members entry on a CW map - 15 members
Level 10 crew - 60% members entry on a CW map - 15 members




Still not satisfied because you want to claim that people would still be afraid of a big, bad level 10 crew?
let me give you second example (this would also be an example of Joker day):
Level 1 crew - 100% = 20 members
Level 6 crew - 60% = 15 members
Level 10 crew - 40% = 10 members



Still not satisfied because you still want to complain that people would still be afraid of a big, bad level 10 crew?
Here's third example:
Level 1 crew - 100% = 20 members
Level 6 crew - 40% = 10 members
Level 10 crew - 20% = 5 members



Still not satisfied because people would be still scared of a big, bad level 10 crew?
let me give you fourth example:

Level 1 crew - 5 members
Level 6 crew - 5 members
Level 10 crew - 5 members



Do you now see an advantage of employing my idea?
My idea allows dynamic, temporary shifts among samples above to make necessary adjustments within CW scenes,
unlike your option that permanently anchors CW system on a finite limit.



However, still not satisfied because people would never, ever and ever eternally and infinitely, overcome the fear of a big, bad level 10 crew?
I don't honestly know what to suggest anymore.
So, my fifth option - might as well distribute 580 CW tokens to all players online at the CW time without having a single CW battle.

Hell, while we are at it, might as well wipe the entire PBO down to make sure that everyone starts CW from level 1, Badge 0
to eradicate "balance" problem once and for all with people having different levels of pokemons ranging from 1 to 100 in CW battles.

DioKlau
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm

Above all else, "not enough players" isn't a solid reasoning that justifies a complete breakdown of a system in PBO
The first part of your reply was based on that. To prove your point you said that it would be the same as closing the gyms since most players stop playing on the first ones. Ok, valid. After that you ask me to tell how closing gyms and reducing crew members are different.
In order to do that we gotta understand both problems and see why they occour.

I will ignore that the majority of accounts that stops on the first gym are because of player making other account to get other starter or a better nature, players with a second account to get double rewards and players that didnt like pbo (the non-animation thing and etc.)
I'm gonna focus on the ones that actually start to play but then give up on 2nd, 3rd gym, for some reason and this reason mainly is the grinding needing, or for solo-playing (on Increasing the Community Thread you can understand it better). And for those problems we can find solutions without radical decisions. If you read my other threds, you will see that i'm against radical decisions unless when nothing can be done about the issue (cloyster problem). The radical solution os this case is closing the gyms and giving for every new player what an old player can do, and geez, it is far from being necessary, i suggested things to solve this problem without needing to be harsh about it. But overall your point was: "If we can change cw cause of players, we can do that to gyms as well". My point is: "We cant make radical decisions only cause we can, but only when we NEED". Urfortunately we need on Cw, and if you read my suggestion again, you will see that the low player base is not the only reason for it

After the gym stuff you said
I don't understand why you are all fixating on the number 10
About that i trully believe that 10 players on crew is a fair number, keeping in mind that my suggestions also had the "pvp crews" on it. 10 is a balanced number, and will be hard to break crew war again with 10 as a maximum.
But i know that i cant be sure about it, that is why since the beginning i asked for suggestions on what can be improved, if someone thinks that 10 isnt a good number cause of some reason that is not: "I dont wanna leave my old crew mates" (cause it was discussed already) i will be glad to hear and i will be able to change my mind.
But overall it couldnt be less than 10 because it wouldnt be able to co-exist with PvP crews, and as more number as we put on it, biggers are the chances for currently issues get repeated in the future (snowball and stuffs that i'm sure everyone already heard a lot).

After that you quote me saying that even with the new system, a crew can be stronger than others. You probably mistunderstood (or it was my fault and it wasnt clearly) that with that system a crew could still snowball. I meant that would still be stronger crews, but the difference of the stronger and the others will be much smaller than the one that exists today. A crew with only 10 members dominating crew wars is really unlikely to happen compared with the 25 ones we have today. The only possibly case of it happening is if only one crew has 10 members and every other has like 2-3 because every crew hates each other, and does not want to merge in a bigger one. And even in that case, the new players recruiting will be fair, so a crew might invest on recruit players to get stronger on the future. That cant happen today for reasons that you already know.
Overall your point was that crews with the maximum of 10 members could still dominate cw, proving that reducing is not a solution. That cant happen.
After that you kept your analogies, but with a computer this time, but after what i said, there is no point in going into that.


To finish you started to talk about crews levels to improve your previous suggestion about keeping the members, but only a few can go to cw.
Still not satisfied because you want to claim that people would still be afraid of a big, bad level 10 crew?
I honestly dont know where i said that the crew level is a problem and reason to ppl get afraid, since every crew in the game is lvl 10, and as you can see... Cw is broken.
That is not a level issue, but you're right, this level system can lead us to solutions on problems that might come.

Now back to beginning

Since the beginning your solution to fix cw was making only a few members at once enter the cw map, but if you see your crew mates feedbacks about this thread, they said that you already only have 7-10 members on cw each day. So what will change with your solution? Cw will keep exactly like it is today.

That is because not every player of your crew plays everyday on cw, and the same happens on any other crew. But Illusion right now has a pool of players that makes it with 7-10 players everyday, while other crews dont.
Right now even if a crew goes to cw with every player (active on cw), it wont reach the number of 7-10, actually will be half of that.

The pointing on caping the numbers of players that i suggested will make the excess of players on illusion get distribuited on other crews.

I wouldnt suggest dismantling the crews (a radical decision) if i see other options that makes both: Crew wars get fixed and players get happy

Please do not say "make the limit player entering become 5 then, or 4, or 3, or 2, ...." even if it being a 'solution' for the problem, wont be fair with the players. i personally would hate to be barred to go to cw when i want. As i said, it is the only thing that can be done for players right now. Keeping players out of Cw is the opposite of having fun. It might be a secondary crew war mode with some kind of coop with players that are in with players that are out. But as the main crew war mode, it isnt cool.


To finish it i wanna say that i can see that you probably are seeing a lot of problems with my method that i cant see by myself, that is either cause i am wrong indeed, or cause you refuse at any cust to accept my idea.
There is no way for both of us to find the truth if it keeps happening, so please keep giving your opinions and snehks along with the community will see what is the best for Pbo.

To anyone else that has a opinion about what was said, please send it. If you are brazilian/spanish and dont know how to tell it in english, please send me a message and i will translate it here.

LifeFlows
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 1:37 am

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:54 am

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm

I will ignore that the majority of accounts that stops on the first gym are because of player making other account to get other starter or a better nature, players with a second account to get double rewards and players that didnt like pbo (the non-animation thing and etc.)
I'm gonna focus on the ones that actually start to play but then give up on 2nd, 3rd gym, for some reason and this reason mainly is the grinding needing, or for solo-playing (on Increasing the Community Thread you can understand it better). And for those problems we can find solutions without radical decisions. If you read my other threds, you will see that i'm against radical decisions unless when nothing can be done about the issue (cloyster problem). The radical solution os this case is closing the gyms and giving for every new player what an old player can do, and geez, it is far from being necessary, i suggested things to solve this problem without needing to be harsh about it. But overall your point was: "If we can change cw cause of players, we can do that to gyms as well". My point is: "We cant make radical decisions only cause we can, but only when we NEED". Urfortunately we need on Cw, and if you read my suggestion again, you will see that the low player base is not the only reason for it

I'm REALLY glad that you fully disagree with a ridiculous irony that I tried so hard to expose in my previous post.

But, let me clarify what I truly meant in the post you quoted as to prevent any further misunderstanding from you.

No, my point was NOT this phrase: "if we can change CW cause of players, we can do that to gyms as well"

My point was: we can't copy-paste a weak logic as a catchphrase like "not enough players" to be applied in every single circumstance and instance in PBO
like few people are trying to convince so in various suggestions or discussions.
To my eyes, it is an attempt to hijack and halt a train of creative ideas coming in from other people.
Various discussions in hope of finding meaningful solutions to mitigate such loss in player base are treated as futile efforts
with this logic of "not enough players" that certain people seem to cherish as a magic silver bullet in any arguments:
"not enough players for 3 CWs in a day" "not enough players for battle royale" "not enough players for this" "not enough players for that"

You further explained that a radical solution like closing gym is not needed.
As you have said clearly, the correlation between number of players and gym badges cannot be assessed in a simple statement.
Just like I said, you have to consider so many factors!
You mentioned a few: people's dislike over lack of animation, dislike towards grinding, dislike towards feeling of being stranded alone in MMO - all valid points!

Of course, as I have said very clearly from the beginning of that paragraph you quoted,
I used that particular example of gyms to "display how such logic [of not enough players] fails at addressing complex issues that require careful analyses and solutions."


Then, can't you now see that I'm trying to covey dissolving current crew system as a far too radical solution?

Of course, I strive to be a rational person like you. Therefore, just like you, I don't advocate for radical solutions to be applied first at the sight of every single problem.
Then, I'm glad that you finally understood the context in which I brought up my suggestion of limiting crew combatants entry into a CW map.
Compared to your view of dissolving crews, my suggestion is far less radical, just as you said!

Being a reasonable person as you are, I'm sure you now understand my position of advocating for softer, less radical solutions
before we recklessly allow PBO to plunge onto a permanent, radical solution.

As you yourself mentioned above, you are not even sure whether this radical solution will yield 100% results that you expected:
there might be another giant crew playing monopoly; there might still be issues with unequal distribution of CW tokens.

Why not take a soft, safer dip into a lake before you fully commit yourself on leaping into it?
Water temperature might be too low that might send your body into an immediate shock,
or there might be a big rock hiding underneath the dark surface waiting for your head to collide.

We can't risk CW to die under abrupt, dangerous circumstances.

The only fundamental difference between you and me is this:
You think a radical solution of dissolving current crews is required immediately,
while I think we can try less invasive solutions FIRST before we progressively move onto more radical solutions.

Also, my grand question still stands unanswered:
if you think closing gym is a repulsive idea that is "far from being necessary",
then please explain why you don't treat the very idea of dissolving crews as repulsive and unnecessary as the idea of closing gyms down.

After your first post in this thread, Johann's suggestion along with mine brought up an alternative solution that a reasonable person like you can consider a worthy option
as you claim that you prefer a less radical or violent solution.

But, you fail to explain your logic behind your support of dissolution of crews.
Oh wait, I almost missed your remark that actually displayed your logic: "We don't have enough players to allow crews to keep a lot of members to them"

Oh.......... I think I may have been too enthusiastic on a prospect that you may have realized fallacy in the logic behind "not enough players" catchphrase
just as I explained above.

So, this leaves me in a very awkward understanding on what you are truly trying to say:
You say that various factors have to be considered before anyone can jump on a rash, radical conclusion with the question of gym closure.
Then, why are you rejecting to consider various reasons and factors I present in my arguments to be considered before anyone can jump on a rash decision to dissolve current crew system??
I'm very, very confused with your logic of employing 2 starkly different logics in your arguments.

Please, do enlighten me and clarify your motive and true logic behind your support for dissolution of crew systems.
You may not believe it, but all I've been trying to do in this thread is to ask valid questions and to understand your arguments wholeheartedly.




DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
After the gym stuff you said
I don't understand why you are all fixating on the number 10
About that i trully believe that 10 players on crew is a fair number, keeping in mind that my suggestions also had the "pvp crews" on it. 10 is a balanced number, and will be hard to break crew war again with 10 as a maximum.
But i know that i cant be sure about it, that is why since the beginning i asked for suggestions on what can be improved, if someone thinks that 10 isnt a good number cause of some reason that is not: "I dont wanna leave my old crew mates" (cause it was discussed already) i will be glad to hear and i will be able to change my mind.
But overall it couldnt be less than 10 because it wouldnt be able to co-exist with PvP crews, and as more number as we put on it, biggers are the chances for currently issues get repeated in the future (snowball and stuffs that i'm sure everyone already heard a lot).
First of all, if you want to quote my argument, please quote in full sentences to prevent any unnecessary misunderstanding over what I truly meant.
Here's my full quote of that particular sentence:
"I don't understand why you are all fixating on the number 10 in Johann's suggestion."
This clearly does not refer to your idea of dissolving crews and restructuring them into 10 members max.

Here's an accurate quotation from Johann's only post within this thread on how number "10" is referred to:
"Make max 10 for CW instead.
Like max 10 players can register for CW everyday."

In all honesty, I really don't care on why 10 or 15 members are justified instead of 3 or 7 for that matter in crew dissolution.
As you can see, at this juncture, I'm firmly opposed with applying your idea as the first spearhead solution to tackle a very difficult problem to solve.
By slim chance, should my solution be applied first before your idea,
then I assure you that I will be more inclined to examine your personal conviction more closely at a later date as a potential backup plan for my solution's failure.
Just interesting to note, though, I have received abundantly clear that your belief on that number 10 in your new crew system
seems to be based on a very firm, personal, potentially arbitrary opinion on "balanced number" - duly noted.




DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
if someone thinks that 10 isnt a good number cause of some reason that is not: "I dont wanna leave my old crew mates"
(cause it was discussed already) i will be glad to hear and i will be able to change my mind.
I don't know if I could call it a proper discussion if you mostly devoted yourself in writing down your personal emotions
going through over such a painful decision making of yours for a game.

"Johann> Trust me, i really understand how hard will be to dismantle a crew that you put so much effort into. It took me a lot to accept that the best for me (keep all royal phoenix members with all fun and talks with everyone on cw chat) cant match with the best for Pbo at the moment. I tried for days to think in a situation that both can exist, but i couldnt think on anything. About your suggestion of keeping the players but only a few can go to cw at one, i thought on it before. The problem is that the point in dismantling crews is to increase the competitivity on CW, making the excess of players to create their own crews/ join others. We dont have players enough to allow crews to keep a lot of members to them.
It is a tough and heart-breaking decision, i know. But it is necessary... I hope you can understand."


I was just gonna glance over this comment as it was neither relevant to me nor directed against me, but I have a very interesting question to raise on a certain statement.
"The problem is that the point in dismantling crews is to [make] the excess of players to create their own crews/ join others."

So, let's indulge on a sweet possibility that your idea is warmly accepted.
Let's say this overpowered crew finally got dissolved. Out of 25 people in that crew, who do you think would most likely be forced out of the original crew?
The power players with full stack of level 100? Or newbies with level 30s?

Obviously, any reasonable human being with great intellect, just as you are, can assume that newbies will be victims, and they will be forced out.
So, 10 newbies are now exiled from every single established crew, not only from Illusion, but also from GO3C, RP, etc.
These 10 newbies (on a relative scale compared to established, old players) create a whole crew just as you expected.

At this point, do you truly believe that these newbie-filled, exiled crews have a much, much better chance to secure CW tokens
in a realistic sense against old crews with power players?
On what logical ground can you guarantee that these poor newbies would just stop playing the game altogether after some time?

Do we see a similar pattern here from the CW before this sweet dissolution?
I certainly do. Forcing sacrifices upon newbies do not promote healthy competitions among community members.
It only worsens. A LOT - by having only sad newbies ready to quit the entire game at a moment's notice.

If someone thinks that my projection toward these possible future events a bogus projection,
without giving personal promises like: "I'm gonna make sure no newbies are abandoned from my crew"
(cause it was discussed already by my statements above) i will be glad to hear his or her opinions to change my mind.




DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
After that you quote me saying that even with the new system, a crew can be stronger than others. You probably mistunderstood (or it was my fault and it wasnt clearly) that with that system a crew could still snowball. I meant that would still be stronger crews, but the difference of the stronger and the others will be much smaller than the one that exists today. A crew with only 10 members dominating crew wars is really unlikely to happen compared with the 25 ones we have today. The only possibly case of it happening is if only one crew has 10 members and every other has like 2-3 because every crew hates each other, and does not want to merge in a bigger one. And even in that case, the new players recruiting will be fair, so a crew might invest on recruit players to get stronger on the future. That cant happen today for reasons that you already know.
Overall your point was that crews with the maximum of 10 members could still dominate cw, proving that reducing is not a solution. That cant happen.
After that you kept your analogies, but with a computer this time, but after what i said, there is no point in going into that.
I beg to differ respectfully, but I don't think I misunderstood your statements.
I even want to claim that such differences like 250 tokens for Illusion alone vs. 350 tokens for 4 crews to split (just random hypothetical number)
will slowly gain negative momentum to force other players to quit.

I can only sense this uneasy attempt from you to coax Illusion members under a false impression
that Illusion will still get majority of tokens,
while the rest also enjoy trickle-down effects of some tokens from Illusion - a certain win & win situation, happy new crew system!

"So a crew like Illusion that works hard to be the best and will definitly have a lot of competition from ppl that want to get in will of course have always 10 great players to go to Cw and get more tokens than everyone else. The difference is that instead of 400 to illusion and 200 to split among other crews, i suppose that will be something like: 250 to illusion and 350 to split among other crews. That is only a supposition, but the new illusion will be stronger than most crews even with the new system if you keep the great job"

Again, I firmly reject your entire arguments because they are groundlessly rosy prediction.

Would you like to see some archives of screenshots that recorded surprising differences in token distribution
between Illusion and other crews like 1 and a half month ago?

This was taken on June 28th.
Image

This was on June 30th.
Image

As seen from the screenshots above,
even the slightest instances of domination over a long period of time can shift "balances" to add up to a massive outcome at a later date - it's called butterfly effect.


DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Still not satisfied because you want to claim that people would still be afraid of a big, bad level 10 crew?
I honestly dont know where i said that the crew level is a problem and reason to ppl get afraid, since every crew in the game is lvl 10.
This level 10 reference was brought in mind to remind everyone a cruel reality of newbie crews with lower levels that have to face against more established, older crews.
It is happening right now as such phenomenon was witnessed in a small crew called Union - few recruits sadly left their crew to get into bigger, higher level crews
to receive full benefits from level 10 crew.
It is only natural that people seek more power, safety, security from stronger crews.
New crews will inevitably be disadvantaged VERY HEAVILY due to lack of experiences, know-how over PBO systems, etc, etc.

Fortunately, you and I have been members of more established crews for a long time,
but I do try to sympathize over hardships that smaller crews would have to trudge through in current CW system.
That's why I have constantly been advocating for lvl 50 cap battle royale, 3v3 CW format, and other various suggestions since May 29th forum post,
even after my recent triumph over the Elite 4
because I still REMEMBER vividly what it felt like to be harassed and bullied by older players from other crews in CWs on a daily basis.
Please take note, I was fortunate enough to start my membership with one of the most dominant crews from badge 1,
and still got bullied constantly over and through, until I trained my first level 100 pokemon.

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Since the beginning your solution to fix cw was making only a few members at once enter the cw map, but if you see your crew mates feedbacks about this thread, they said that you already only have 7-10 members on cw each day. So what will change with your solution? Cw will keep exactly like it is today.

That is because not every player of your crew plays everyday on cw, and the same happens on any other crew. But Illusion right now has a pool of players that makes it with 7-10 players everyday, while other crews dont.
Please consider reading a wide variety of my samples from 1 to 4.
In one particular sample, the fourth one addresses that any crew would have only 5 members entering a CW map,
which would "balance" the CW battleground so much better than CWs today.

As I clearly said, if you are still unhappy with any of my samples from 1 to 4,
Sample 5 appropriately recommends blind, equal distribution of entire stock of 580 tokens to anyone online
all for the sake of satisfying everyone down to one last drop of political correctness.

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
The pointing on caping the numbers of players that i suggested will make the excess of players on illusion get distribuited on other crews.
Let me be clear on why people from Illusion firmly resists your idea:
Illusion members do not want to dwell even on the slightest possibility to send its own members to a junior-varsity crew,
just so that they could become hopeless, easier prey to other hostile crews.

I would suggest you to consider seriously, very seriously on
the prospect and implication of sending "excess of players" from your own crew to a most definite doom to come in future CWs.

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
I wouldnt suggest dismantling the crews (a radical decision) if i see other options that makes both: Crew wars get fixed and players get happy
I don't know - honestly, I feel like I'm screaming on top off my lungs to shout into the void
even though I tried my damnest to introduce an alternative that might both "fix" CW and get players "happy."

DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Please do not say "make the limit player entering become 5 then, or 4, or 3, or 2, ...." even if it being a 'solution' for the problem, wont be fair with the players. i personally would hate to be barred to go to cw when i want. As i said, it is the only thing that can be done for players right now. Keeping players out of Cw is the opposite of having fun. It might be a secondary crew war mode with some kind of coop with players that are in with players that are out. But as the main crew war mode, it isnt cool.
I fully explained potential to enjoy various tactical maneuvers within CW with limitation of CW map entry.
I would highly recommend you to observe how Roman legions conducted battles in the ancient time - they won countless victories through discipline and rotation systems that kept their reserves fresh in prolonged, exhausting battles.


DioKlau wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 pm
To finish it i wanna say that i can see that you probably are seeing a lot of problems with my method that i cant see by myself, that is either cause i am wrong indeed, or cause you refuse at any cust to accept my idea.
In my perspective and in my exhaustion, it is you who are stubbornly refusing my suggestion at any cost.
As I said, I'm WILLING to accept your idea as a backup solution in a case that my suggestions utterly fail.

I do hope that my lengthy dissection over your comments reach you in due time.
Thanks a lot for reading this disorganized, excessively long jumble.

DioKlau
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:37 am

I really dont think that it will end, so i will just fastly tell you about what you just said and then i will make a direct summary of my points through the discussion and ask you to do the same... after that snehks and the community can discuss what is the better for Pbo.

About you being ironic, i rather to take you serious cause to be honest that kind of attitude isn't good in a debate.
About the complaining of using 'not enough players' as a reason, you are right about people using it for every problem instead of thinking on ideas to solve it. And i can assure you that i think on the more numbers of options that i could before saying that they wont work mainly cause they need a higher player base.
The new crews being fulled of weaker players is a valid point, thanks for that. It might dismotivate 70-90's players from keeping going to cw and i have a few ideas about what can be done about it and i will be glad to talk with you about it to think on even more solutions.
Then you said that i'm just predicting what will happen. It is true, i cant know for sure the future, i wish i had that power. Only thing i can do is base myself on facts and understands the impacts of what will happen. Based on the facts i can predict that the system will be balanced.
After that you screenshot a uncommum week on cw (with a short ascencion of FF that changed the crew war), said that new crews will get affraid of those lvl 10 (wont be issue with the dismantling system + rework on level benefits) and said that the 4th version of you solution was the better, but it will bring issues as i said on the end of my last thread, and for that you said that cool ideas can be implemented with that, which also brings to the end of my thread where i say that it would be great to use as a secondary crew wars mode, and i say it cause it is not as fun as the currently system.
But choosing what is best or not to the game is not a thing that 2 persons can do, we can only tell our opinions and ideas, so i would appreciate if you can think on a way to really fix the currently unbalance on cw, without being as radical as me and keeping fun to everyone (not only for those 5 in a 20 players crew that can enter the cw and fight ppl, run to the base and etc). And make your own thread for it, so more players will see this, and i can even translate it to Pt/Br if you want to, since most players are Br's and doesnt like to read in english a lot.


After what i said, which i unfortunately took a little longer than i wish since yours answers are a bit huge, i'm gonna make a summary of my opinion of what was discussed so far and i ask you to only do the same on your reply to this. I'm probably wrong but i feel a bit of agressivity on your answers and i really dont want it to become a fight, so it will be the best option.



After hear what illusion has to say about the crew war mod i suggested, i could understand that dismantling crews will impact players more than i thought on a emotional side, and that might risk people leaving cause of it. In order to confort its emotional side a suggestion was propose that would keep the players they have, but only a few can go to cw at once. It will bring problems since prevent ppl to do the only thing they can do in game is a bad and unfun idea. In order to solve it i belive that lifeflows will bring a cw method that will make it fun to everyone inside and outside the crew war map, but without impacting on people experience in-cw, and hopefully attending to those 6 problems on currently cw that i said on Crew Wars thread.

My suggestion attends 5 of them and from all the answers to this thread, none of them said that it does not, or that i was wrong for some reason on they, so it is either solid on that part or people just skipped it.

If she (or anyone else) can think on it, i will support the change (since it is less intrusive than mine) and keep what i suggested as a backup plan in case of that idea do not work.
Apart from that, along this answers LifeFlows presented some issues with my suggestion and the one of those that can really happen is that when the new crews get made, old players will get reunited on one while the weaker ones will have to figure out what to do. The smarter move for them is joining a promissing crew and grow strong with it. But will have players that wont find other big crew to get in and will be dismotivated, since before that they were getting 600 tokens every cw, but now they have to live with way less than that. The abrupt difference might make them give up on going to crew war. I have something on mind to fix it, but it have to be better molded before i present it, so i will appreciate if you think on something to be done about that issue, and together we can find the best solution.

I tried to make really simple what happened here with all those texts, and without taking this decision, more texts would come.
Overall i believe i have a solid idea and that fits great on Crew Wars problems right now, but no one can be 100% sure about the impacts of the implement of my suggestions, issues that we didnt think about might be showed and depending on what is it, people can get desmotivated and quit.
So i agree in going through a more safe one to test, before going for one that looks great, but have a chance to bring other issues.

I'm sure lifeflows will present a summary with her point about what was discussed so far, on a shorter version, since most players are br's and reading this much is really discouraging, and i really look forward for her thread with the solution to Cw.

LifeFlows
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 1:37 am

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:30 am

DioKlau wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:37 am
About you being ironic, i rather to take you serious cause to be honest that kind of attitude isn't good in a debate.
...
Then you said that i'm just predicting what will happen.
...
After that you screenshot a uncommum week on cw (with a short ascencion of FF that changed the crew war)

Just as you asked me to write a summary in hopes of ending this bilateral debate between you and I,
some of your closing remarks prompt me to take defense over my arguments
as they smear rather unfair treatments over my serious, carefully constructed arguments.

Therefore, allow me to respond in kind to your remarks.




First, I am unsure why you are defining, essentially undermining, my conscious use of irony to expose incongruity as a "kind of attitude [that] isn't good in a debate."
I explicitly expressed my clear intention before I proceeded on exposing contradictions within the logic of "not enough players."

For the records, here is my analogy of "irony" in one of my posts:
LifeFlows wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:45 pm
Above all else, "not enough players" isn't a solid reasoning that justifies a complete breakdown of a system in PBO.
Let me display how such logic fails at addressing complex issues that require careful analyses and solutions...

...From this sheer statistics at how many people give up playing PBO, I might as well clamor for a motion to close down gym 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and E4
just because "not enough players" enjoy those contents beyond gym 3.
It's so "unbalanced" that only so few people get to enjoy access to rare pokemons and training grounds then.
Why not open up all training grounds and spawns beyond gym 3 to all players with badge 2?

Please, I beg you to point out how my motion to close down all gyms beyond gym 3 is any different
from your arguments to close down a crew system beyond 15 members
- all employ the very same logic of "not enough players" that majority cannot enjoy full benefits.

Your argument works under an assumption that only few people of a certain group enjoy CW,
while the bigger population outside of that crew suffer from monopoly - so they quit.

My argument also works under a same pretense that only few people of a certain group(badge) enjoy maps and spawns beyond gym 3,
while the rest suffer from oligopoly of old players - so they quit.

Do I make myself clear on how logic of "not enough players" is actually a weak ground to build upon decent arguments or to address any complex situations?
CW is one of the most intricate and delicate topic that needs careful analyses and delicate solutions.
All I'm saying is that the simplest solution on sight might not be the best solution for a very complex problem.




"Then you said that i'm just predicting what will happen."

Second, I have never asked you to make 100% accurate predictions - no human in right mind can perform that impossible task.

I have only asked you to take your own acknowledgement of inherent risks within your suggestion
(presence of an overly dominant crew and "unfair" distribution of CW tokens even after your version of new crew system)
to take bare minimum caution in forcibly projecting your version of rosy outcomes onto PBO.

You are recklessly pushing PBO to take a leap of faith over 18 meters of height, without any safety equipment attached by saying:
"hey PBO, even though I can't assure your safety afterwards, I firmly believe that you will be all right after the leap. So, just trust me and jump already!"





"After that you screenshot a uncommum week on cw (with a short ascencion of FF that changed the crew war)"

Third, the screenshots offer valid evidence for counterarguments to your theory on how "fair" distribution of tokens can magically ensure future success of CWs.

My screenshots showcase how "fair" or even "reversed" distributions of tokens
between Illusion and the other crew, namely FrostFire, failed to sustain this idolized coexistence in your theory even for a short period of time under 2 months.

If you want to prove that your theory still works, FrostFire, by all means, should have survived to this date
to improve upon their prominent presence even in current CW scenes.
However, you and I both know fully well on how FrostFire is now practically gone only after a month and a half period of time.

My deduction from these screenshots demonstrates how "fair" or "more favorable" distribution of CW tokens cannot even ensure
longevity of a competent crew nor sustainability of CWs.
The dynamics and interactions within CWs are much more complex,
and a conveniently built theory of yours fails to address basic issues in depth - unfortunately, your theory has to be rejected.





Now that I deployed adequate defense over my arguments, let me make a succinct summary of my suggestions.
Despite lengthy discussions and arguments in my posts to consider various aspects in-depth, my core idea is quite simple.

Currently, every crew can field max. 25 combatants on a CW map.
However, current CW system has no practical measure to keep checks and balances over one super dominant crew from emerging.

My suggestion is to create an auxiliary system within current CW system to hand out specific number of permits to each competitive crew.

The number of permits can be coded to be calculated automatically by the CW teleporter NPC
to determine how many members of a crew should be allowed in a CW map.

Or it could be a simple dispensary system that hands out specific number of 24-hour-expiration CW permits to each leader of a crew prior to each CW.

For example, let's assume there are 3 crews with different number of permits assigned to each.
Crew A - 25 permits / Crew B - 20 permits / Crew C - 10 permits

At first, it might seem quite unfair to Crew C,
but Crew C in reality has witnessed its super-soldiers' dominant performances in previous CWs
that wrecked all members of Crew A and B combined.

So, in order to allow fun battles, PBO admins assigned only 10 permits in this upcoming CW.
Despite Crew C's still dominant performance of each individual member,
Crew C will constantly be overwhelmed by the sheer difference in number of soldiers against Crew A and B.

But having more leftover members offers yet another subtle tactical advantage for Crew C - reserve forces of Crew C
can stand-by near the CW teleporter to enter the CW map immediately after a member's defeat,
while Crew A and B would have to wait for their members to walk back from a pokecenter far away from the CW teleporter NPC,
inevitably delaying arrival of reinforcements in various stages.

Such intervention by PBO admins can be performed through periodic or pre-determined macro-management
or through instantaneous micro-management to promote both long-term and short-term fun
out of CW experience for many crews under a very dynamic CW scenes.


So, that's all from me for now!
Thank you for reading my posts so far,
and I hope that people would continue to put forth their precious ideas for this very important topic of PBO.

DioKlau
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:59 pm

Thanks for being active on this thread, i really appreciate it. I can see that you dont understand clearly what happened to FF cause you was looking from outside, while i was part of it, but there is no need in going into that.
Again i'm glad because you do not agree with my suggestion, and thanks to that i could think on solutions to the problems presented on it.
Keeping in mind that you dont want to help me to improve my suggestion, and i trully understand your reasons, i ask you again to create a thread on forum with your suggestion to solve Crew war 6 currently problem, or at least as many as you can. So you will have players interacting direct with that, including me, since i will try my best to help make your idea to get to its best.
Good luck and thank you for help to make pbo a better place.

ShadowIX
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:39 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 pm

How would you select 5 players to go to cws if 15 would want to go?
Also, having let's say 5 players on the bench, isn't that a waste?

The more players in cws, the more fun it is, problem is, Illusion possibly have 50% of active players, if not more.
On another note:

Referring to the images attached, two days mean nothing. It could mean players didn't go that day etc. During june, FrostFire had few players going for crew wars, and I can even name them, There is no way we did 240 tokens on such day without a realistic reason, such as, most players not showing up from other crews on that particular day.

FrostFire "didn't work" because it wasn't meant to "work" the way you think. We had help from a second crew, to help us level our new crew up. So we had "borrowed" a couple of players just to help us reach level 10. On a second note, we had agreement already, that once we reach level 10, they would return to their crew. And they had returned by level 8 because they said we didn't really need their help. This was maybe 5 to 6 days long.
So the domination we had during those 6 days, doesn't really count as it wasn't reflecting our guild in a realistic manner.

This was done so :
A) Delques can recruit new players and help them progress.
B) Not Completely dominate the game, as we were doing for a small period of time. This was done so there will be a competitive scene in PBO.

Side note : When FrostFire was dominating, we were told crew wars will be paused.(This was because no one showed up on that day, basically 0 competition). Reason why this happened, I dont know, but it wasn't paused because we had a legit reason for that day.

I don't see much difference from that day compared to the current crew wars. Sure its not completely 580 to 0 tokens, but there is still little competition, and yes, it is due to the player numbers.

And I will quote a developer here, not exact words but similar:
"Crew wars is not meant to be dominated by one crew. Crews are not meant to hold the base." - which means, a crew holds it for like 4 minutes or so, and then loses it, not hold it for 40 mins.

Of course, players wanted a way to defend, at least for a few minutes, so "traps" were supposed to be added. My crew, back then (1337) was already saving up for these traps, and I am glad they never got implemented otherwise the domination would be even greater.

Snehks
Admin
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:10 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:54 pm

After going through all the ideas and speaking with the PBO Team, I have decided to implement a few suggestions in order to improve Crew Wars. Before I go into the details, I know whatever I implement cannot satisfy everyone here but we tried our best to make crew wars a better experience for everyone and to make sure newbies get a better chance to compete. So here is the list of changes I am going forwards with.

1. Soft Limit on crew wars entrance - We have decided to put a soft limit on how many players can enter a crew war for a given day based on crew wars (temporarily). This is done because the player count is pretty small and we have a lot of players in one crew which makes things unbalanced. I don’t want to delete crews which already exist or lower the numbers of player you can have in a crew because that takes away the hard work of so many people. We really don’t want people to get frustrated. This soft limit will be modified with time and probably be removed once crews get balanced.
2. Stalling - I will implement timer on Pokemon switch and you will be kicked from battle if timer runs out “even once”. I have heard enough about stalling and it has reached to a point now where it has destroyed crew wars.
3. Base capture - The members of the crew which has captured the base won’t be able to enter the crew war maps as long as the crew holds the base. So you need to hold the base with the members you currently got on the crew war maps, once you lose the base all your members can enter again (By all I mean the number which is imposed by soft limit).
4. Costumes - I will make sure everyone on the crew war map has the same set of clothing. That will be done to avoid alliance (if any).

I know it might be frustrating for some of you guys but then not everyone can be happy. If these set of ideas don’t work then we will see what else can we do.

Thanks,
Snehks

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