DioKlau wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:59 pm
I can see that you dont understand clearly what happened to FF cause you was looking from outside, while i was part of it, but there is no need in going into that.
ShadowIX wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 pm
FrostFire "didn't work" because it wasn't meant to "work" the way you think. We had help from a second crew, to help us level our new crew up. So we had "borrowed" a couple of players just to help us reach level 10. On a second note, we had agreement already, that once we reach level 10, they would return to their crew. And they had returned by level 8 because they said we didn't really need their help. This was maybe 5 to 6 days long.
So the domination we had during those 6 days, doesn't really count as it wasn't reflecting our guild in a realistic manner.
This was done so :
A) Delques can recruit new players and help them progress.
B) Not Completely dominate the game, as we were doing for a small period of time. This was done so there will be a competitive scene in PBO.
Side note : When FrostFire was dominating, we were told crew wars will be paused.(This was because no one showed up on that day, basically 0 competition).
Reason why this happened, I dont know, but it wasn't paused because we had a legit reason for that day.
I don't see much difference from that day compared to the current crew wars.
Sure its not completely 580 to 0 tokens, but there is still little competition, and yes, it is due to the player numbers.
Before I start, I have to express some degree of gratitude to ShadowIX, the leader of FrostFire, for enlightening me with this "mechanism" on how his crew worked.
Also, I have to apologize for my previous ignorance on how FrostFire worked,
but ShadowIX's reply and subsequent enlightenment beg me to raise important questions
that, I feel, are very relevant in assuring fairness and success of future CWs
as an outsider to a crew FrostFire (I will use abbreviation of FF from now on).
To be honest, Shadow's explanation infuriates
me as an outsider of FF that I cannot restrain myself effectively in maintaining objective tonality in this post.
I apologize again if this post makes other members of PBO uncomfortable because of my strong and aggressive tonality.
These questions are directed against any member of FF, including ShadowIX himself, who were privy to the details that ShadowIX just disclosed.
1. Can you explain how such practices of enlisting "help" and "borrowing members" from the other crew do not constitute as forming an illegal, secret alliance?
You also mentioned that you "forged" an agreement with the other crew to "borrow" members under a certain condition (reaching FF to level 10 crew status).
It may not be a permanent alliance among crews that everyone, including Snehks, frown upon,
but you "did" form a temporary
alliance for FF's own benefits.
As far as outsiders of FF were concerned, we did not, and could not, know whether FF was a progeny of a inter-crew "agreement"
because you never publicly announced or declared those details to other crews;
we simply thought that FF was a legitimate crew that happened to recruit some old members of other crews.
Don't any members of FF dare claim that this alliance was forged all in "good intention" or in self-justification over abstract terms like "balance" or "justice."
Even in the real world, "good intention" cannot grant a complete immunity from taking responsibility of a bad consequence.
Such excuse of "good intention" behind an action can only be accepted from children in kindergarten.
2. How is this practice of enlisting "help" a fair practice to new crews with newbies, who cannot enjoy the same level of connection and benefits
that you and your crew members enjoyed during the initial development of FF?
This dominance you enjoyed, however short it was, cannot be employed or enjoyed in a same, proficient manner by newbie crews' members.
If this is an acceptable practice on your ethical ground, then you cannot possibly advocate for a new crew system
because only crews with connection and influence can thrive again even if PBO wipes the entire crew system down to employ a new system.
Perhaps, would I be wrong to make an educated guess that some of you clamor for dissolution of current crew system
because you KNOW you can exploit the same method and get away with such scheme to successfully build up new crews like that over 5-6 days?
3. "once we [FF] reach level 10, they would return to their crew. And [But
] they had returned by level 8 because they said we didn't really need their help."
From this statement, you are clearly trying to place blame on the other crew members by showing
that they returned to their original crew against FF's wishes, without fulfilling the original agreement of reaching level 10.
You are trying to say that FF domination only lasted 5-6 days, as if it wasn't a big deal compared to this evil domination of Illusion.
So, was FrostFire really willing to let other crew members return to their original crew if they stayed longer than the 6 day period?
Were you willing to push actively the other crew members out of FF once FF reached level 10?
Or were you willing to sit and idle with benefits of CW domination brought by reinforcements from other crew members?
From your tone of blaming other crew, it is already clear to me that you consider it an unfortunate flop of events
that you didn't get to enjoy longer or more.
Moreover, the very fact that you mobilized other crew members for CWs demonstrates
that FF were actively seeking additional benefits in CWs from such "reinforcement" of the other crew.
If FF were only seeking limited help over reaching the status of level 10 crew from shorter experience farming,
FF should NOT have mobilized those "borrowed" soldiers for CWs on an ethical ground to prevent itself from enjoying illegal benefits at the cost of other crews.
4. "I don't see much difference from that day compared to the current crew wars.
Sure its not completely 580 to 0 tokens, but there is still little competition, and yes, it is due to the player numbers."
Since your ethical judgment seems to be rendered dysfunctional by your obsession with the number of tokens,
let me clarify the real difference between FF's domination and Illusion's.
FF achieved that domination through an "alliance" with the other crew,
while Illusion is doing so now with its own efforts and strength alone.
FF's domination lasted only short period of time
because "the other crew" in their own honorable judgment refused to let FF harvest undeserving tokens at the cost of others.
So, would it be fair for any other crews like Illusion to enlist the same "help" and to "borrow" members from other existing crews to assure domination?
Your experience with the "help" and "borrowing" methodology proves that such measure displays high potential to guarantee success in current and future CW scenes.
If you think FF is the only crew that is entitled to employ this technique, while the other crews are morally forbidden,
please try to explain your reasoning coherently on an ethical and logical ground that everyone outside of FF
This concludes my list of questions toward the FF.
Even if my conviction and logic tells me to do otherwise,
I will still make a conscious effort with the best of my diminishing patience
to conduct civilized discussions with what people in FF have to say in their defense, just for the record.
Finally, as a response to your side note, since you don't remember the reason why CW did not get suspended in spite of FF domination,
allow me to remind you as an outsider of FF who experienced onslaughts of FF at that time.
CW at that time did not get suspended because other crews, including Illusion, did not raise an objection to a state
where FF continued to dominate over other crews, at least for duration of your temporary alliance.
Snehks came online and saw the state of CW being overrun by FF.
He told people online on global chat that he would be willing to shut down CW if such domination of one crew continues.
It may surprise you as the leader of FF who hold strong hatred against certain members in Illusion,
but, at that moment, JohannES14 as the leader of Illusion, replied to Snehks on global chat that other crews, including Illusion, were temporarily short-handed
due to academic exams of its own members, etc.
So Snehks acknowledged FF domination as a temporary hiccup without the need to apply drastic solutions like shutting down CW.
In retrospect, I can can only wonder:
what would have happened at that time, if other crews like Illusion knew about your actions of enlisting "help" and "borrowing" members from the other crew?
An interesting question for anyone else in PBO to think about.